XJT Captain Downgrade Article in NYT

[satpak77]

What is more sad is not so much that this situation exist as much as we as pilots accept it. With new rule changes around the corner, I'm truly hoping this will cut the supply of 400 hour 20 something kids living off mommy's teet.

1. The theory that "we need to put our foot down" sounds good in the locker room but in reality is hard to put into practice. As long as newbies are willing to pay Gulfstream, et al, to be an airline pilot, those dream factories will exist. What are you (we) gonna do? "Put our foot down?" Ain't happening.

2. 400 hour wonders, as long as they buy into the dream, which today is invalid and I would argue nobody today, walking out of ACME AVIATION FLIGHT SCHOOL with their fresh Commercial Multi, that guy will NEVER see that 200K a year heavy iron salary, with a guaranteed pension, flying to Europe 12 days a month, (and off the rest), banging FA's on his trips, eating 5-star airline meals on board the flight. THAT Airline career just doesn't exist anymore. That dream (for the Kit Darby followers) includes promotion to Captain at 10-yr mark at your major, which you "should" have been hired at by the average age of 28. It included the recommendation to score 100 percent on your FEX written, so you "get noticed."

No, that dream is gone to the Airline Museum of the Past. Period, end of story.

The last big boom for majors (I mean all of them, not SWA by itself) was 1998-ish when everybody was hiring. Prior to that, it was late 80's to early 90's. (AMR's was huge in what? 1987?).

My kids may become pilots, but they will never become career pilots.

 

[satpak77]

Aware of my above post, I concede the airline is cyclical and I actually believe a huge hiring boom will occur again. I mean big time, huge. But when? Who knows.

I won't be chasing it, but another generation of dreamers will be.

And I wish the the best of luck too

 

[Scapegoat]

Three years from now, the immense hiring boom for pilots will erase all these gloomy feelings. Hang in there, no matter what happens...

Ha, ha, ha......heard that for 7 years now.

Majors are going get smaller and will not be hiring for attrition for a long time. Don't hold out hope for UAL, AA or DAL. It will be a lot longer than 3 years for them.

 

[Flyin Tony]

Note to self, dont buy a house, get hitched, or have kids!

 

[TapitLight]

Does not illicit a lot of sympathy from me. His somewhat brash attitude and irresponsible financial dealings do not make it a sob story. Hey I'm captain! Let's get a new motorcycle! Let's get in way over our heads in a house! Honey, I'm going to buy you a ring! Wait, I'm a newly upgraded regional captain, just maybe, take it slow and be thankful for you job slick. A more powerful NYT's article would be about the FO I am flying with who is a single dad of two and has another month before he will be on the street. That is reality!

 

[mushroom]

I do feel for the guy, but he and his wife now earn a combined $74,000 a year, even with his pay cut. They can't live on that?

 

[sqwkvfr]

I have a little different take on this.

I've heard from so many people who are FOs at the regionals that whenever they begin a trip the Captain tells them "I don't want to hear any whining about your pay, financial situation, or now super-long expected upgrade time."

A poster above issued a warning to all Captains that they should refrain from spending too much when they upgrade in anticipation of possible downgrade and pay cut.

How about this gentlemen?: If you don't want to listen to your FOs complaining about low pay, instead of just telling them to "shut up," why don't you try standing up for them when your union contract becomes amendable? Regional FO pay, despite being negotiated, is horrendously pathetic. I find it ironic that the same Captains who most likely voted for a pay scale that throws FOs under the bus are whining because of the constant complaining from some of these FOs.

I also find it ironic that Captains are now being downgraded into a pay scale that doesn't increase after, what, year three or four?...since "everyone will have upgraded by that time, anyway."

The senior union members in the company negotiated and voted for these rates. There is no one else to blame.

Now, I, like everyone else on this board, am fully aware that this is a tough time and a lot of pilots are hurting right now. I truly empathize with the situation of these folks and hope that the situation improves very soon. My own situation is not ideal...I had not planned to be an instructor for as long as I've been, but the fact is that I earn more than a three-year Captain at most regionals and simply can't afford to take such a huge pay cut by moving "up."

The senior union members at regional airlines need to remember this time in history when negotiating their pay scales when their current contracts become amendable. It's time to work on pay all around, but FO pay needs to be moved up on the overall priority list. It seems that the NY Times and several other publications have gotten a burr up their collective asses regarding regional airline pay, and the public is becoming better educated about these issues as a result.

With a little luck, the political will to improve pay just might exist, but regional airline pilots need to start planning and negotiating as if they might actually have to work at current job for a rather long period of time, instead of acting as if the regionals are a temp job.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Note to self, dont buy a house, get hitched, or have kids!

I'm way ahead of ya!

 

[BoilerUP]

How about this gentlemen?: If you don't want to listen to your FOs complaining about low pay, instead of just telling them to "shut up," why don't you try standing up for them when your union contract becomes amendable? Regional FO pay, despite being negotiated, is horrendously pathetic. I find it ironic that the same Captains who most likely voted for a pay scale that throws FOs under the bus are whining because of the constant complaining from some of these FOs.

A real good place to start would be tying FO pay to 60% of CA pay.

Who has even that these days, AWAC & ASA?

 

[neflier]

Then, after arranging with another pilot to delay a flight so he could “dead-head” home in the early afternoon instead of having to wait for the next flight, he blew up at his wife for failing to appreciate the effort he had made and the stress involved.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Delay a flight to make a commute and possibly cause the paying passengers to miss their connection? Professionalism at it's finest.

 

[AbOvo]

Isn't the point of the article to raise awareness of the general public? Passengers in the past have thought every pilot earned at least six figures, people constantly asked my wife why she even worked.

After the Buffalo crash and the Hudson ditching the public awareness of pilot reality was brought up several levels. This article just continues on that same path. I am sure I still have people boarding my airplane thinking I have minimal experience (due to age), high pay (assumption based on long lost history), and plenty of rest because of my easy lifestyle (not quite). Our careers are one of the most regulated in the world, you can literally lose your job every day you show up. The bar needs to be raised and I think it's only going to happen by public opinion, unions haven't been able to do jack except sell the profession down the river. It can't be entirely their fault, I used to have a toothless pitbull that I wasn't afraid of either.

 

[dojetdriver]

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Delay a flight to make a commute and possibly cause the paying passengers to miss their connection? Professionalism at it's finest.

Yes, you are so far. The "journalist" that wrote that took creative liberty to sensationalize the story, as well as get a bunch of other facts in that piece WRONG.

Think about it sport, that is if you're actually in this job. Who gets to "deadhead" home? Is what you tell people that are not in this industry if you commute? Again, the "journalist" that wrote it screwed up a bunch of things in that article, which is a shame.

 

[neflier]

Yes, you are so far. The "journalist" that wrote that took creative liberty to sensationalize the story, as well as get a bunch of other facts in that piece WRONG.

Think about it sport, that is if you're actually in this job. Who gets to "deadhead" home? Is what you tell people that are not in this industry if you commute? Again, the "journalist" that wrote it screwed up a bunch of things in that article, which is a shame.

Sorry, I missed the "deadhead" reference, only saw the "called a buddy to delay a flight so I could get home". Glad we both agree on how bad the "journalist" can report these things. I've seen crews delay flights to help a buddy, so when these practices get published, I take offense.

As far as being in the industry, if your screen name is accurate, then we probably flew together, or bid the same lines

TOGA to TEN!!!!!
ACO173

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I don't feel sorry for this guy, AT ALL!

He was talking about how his family sacrificed in the past, scrimped to get by, etc.

I understand if you want kids. BUT, you have ONE KID, and then, when you can afford it, you have more. This guy choose to have a bunch of kids, and then he's complaining? If he had two, I'll bet his financial situation would be VASTLY IMPROVED!

The big house, motorcycle, etc., etc. Surprised he wasn't bitching he had to downgrade to a smaller powerboat.

"I just made my bed, but I want to sleep in someone else's, much nicer bed!"

Hope he learned somthing worthwhile!

cliff
NBO

 

[dojetdriver]

Sorry, I missed the "deadhead" reference, only saw the "called a buddy to delay a flight so I could get home". Glad we both agree on how bad the "journalist" can report these things. I've seen crews delay flights to help a buddy, so when these practices get published, I take offense.

As far as being in the industry, if your screen name is accurate, then we probably flew together, or bid the same lines

TOGA to TEN!!!!!
ACO173

Awwwww dude, since you put it that way, I'm sorry to come off crass to you. As far as what really happened vs. what the guy wrote in the article, they are different. Unfortunately, the guy in the article has to go on a "clarification tour" of the various message boards to clear it up. As far as BL goes, he's a selfless stand up guy that goes to great lengths to help out our pilots as an MEC volunteer. Often times, banging his head up against a wall with management. Just like all the awesome guys we had representing us in LGA, BOS, and LGA.

BL is a friend of mine. Short version, BL is commuting home, has minimal time to make the commute (NOT DEADHEAD), knows the CA flying the flight. Calls him, requests that he not push early, but DO NOT CAUSE A DELAY for him. CA, obliges, flight pushes 1 minute prior to scheduled go time, and all is good in the universe. That is, till a bunghole "journalist" gets a hold of the story and takes it upon himself to fuk it up.

If you were a CA on the 328, good chance I flew with you. On it from 7/2000 till we flew em down to Myrtle Beach in 2004. A moment of silence for the 328, please.

Number 1 in IAD for July/August 2002, number 2 in BOS from Sept. 2002 till June 2004, number 2 in CVG from July 2004 till the end. Can't remember what I was in LGA, left at the end of June 2002. If I ever jacked a line from you wanted, sorry about that. I usually tried to call the guys bidding below me since we were such a tight group on the that airplane to see if they wanted a specific line if they had something going on, spend more time with their kids, etc do that I wouldn't bid it and free it up for them. Most lines on the plane kinda sucked anyway.

TOGA2TEN, bytches!!!!! Still got a sticker on my roller bag. Viva the Dojet.

Hi!

I don't feel sorry for this guy, AT ALL!

He was talking about how his family sacrificed in the past, scrimped to get by, etc.

I understand if you want kids. BUT, you have ONE KID, and then, when you can afford it, you have more. This guy choose to have a bunch of kids, and then he's complaining? If he had two, I'll bet his financial situation would be VASTLY IMPROVED!

The big house, motorcycle, etc., etc. Surprised he wasn't bitching he had to downgrade to a smaller powerboat.

"I just made my bed, but I want to sleep in someone else's, much nicer bed!"

Hope he learned somthing worthwhile!

cliff
NBO

Cliff, I KNOW you're on that "other board", so take a look at the thread and read the response from the person the article is about. I could say all sorts of condescending things about your situation and tell you that I have no sympathy for you, or what your "CEO" is dealing with since you make it so public, you're a good guy, but I won't. So do yourself a favor, and read the thread on the other place.