XJT Captain Downgrade Article in NYT

[mushroom]

I do feel for the guy, but he and his wife now earn a combined $74,000 a year, even with his pay cut. They can't live on that?

 

[sqwkvfr]

I have a little different take on this.

I've heard from so many people who are FOs at the regionals that whenever they begin a trip the Captain tells them "I don't want to hear any whining about your pay, financial situation, or now super-long expected upgrade time."

A poster above issued a warning to all Captains that they should refrain from spending too much when they upgrade in anticipation of possible downgrade and pay cut.

How about this gentlemen?: If you don't want to listen to your FOs complaining about low pay, instead of just telling them to "shut up," why don't you try standing up for them when your union contract becomes amendable? Regional FO pay, despite being negotiated, is horrendously pathetic. I find it ironic that the same Captains who most likely voted for a pay scale that throws FOs under the bus are whining because of the constant complaining from some of these FOs.

I also find it ironic that Captains are now being downgraded into a pay scale that doesn't increase after, what, year three or four?...since "everyone will have upgraded by that time, anyway."

The senior union members in the company negotiated and voted for these rates. There is no one else to blame.

Now, I, like everyone else on this board, am fully aware that this is a tough time and a lot of pilots are hurting right now. I truly empathize with the situation of these folks and hope that the situation improves very soon. My own situation is not ideal...I had not planned to be an instructor for as long as I've been, but the fact is that I earn more than a three-year Captain at most regionals and simply can't afford to take such a huge pay cut by moving "up."

The senior union members at regional airlines need to remember this time in history when negotiating their pay scales when their current contracts become amendable. It's time to work on pay all around, but FO pay needs to be moved up on the overall priority list. It seems that the NY Times and several other publications have gotten a burr up their collective asses regarding regional airline pay, and the public is becoming better educated about these issues as a result.

With a little luck, the political will to improve pay just might exist, but regional airline pilots need to start planning and negotiating as if they might actually have to work at current job for a rather long period of time, instead of acting as if the regionals are a temp job.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Note to self, dont buy a house, get hitched, or have kids!

I'm way ahead of ya!

 

[BoilerUP]

How about this gentlemen?: If you don't want to listen to your FOs complaining about low pay, instead of just telling them to "shut up," why don't you try standing up for them when your union contract becomes amendable? Regional FO pay, despite being negotiated, is horrendously pathetic. I find it ironic that the same Captains who most likely voted for a pay scale that throws FOs under the bus are whining because of the constant complaining from some of these FOs.

A real good place to start would be tying FO pay to 60% of CA pay.

Who has even that these days, AWAC & ASA?

 

[neflier]

Then, after arranging with another pilot to delay a flight so he could “dead-head” home in the early afternoon instead of having to wait for the next flight, he blew up at his wife for failing to appreciate the effort he had made and the stress involved.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Delay a flight to make a commute and possibly cause the paying passengers to miss their connection? Professionalism at it's finest.

 

[AbOvo]

Isn't the point of the article to raise awareness of the general public? Passengers in the past have thought every pilot earned at least six figures, people constantly asked my wife why she even worked.

After the Buffalo crash and the Hudson ditching the public awareness of pilot reality was brought up several levels. This article just continues on that same path. I am sure I still have people boarding my airplane thinking I have minimal experience (due to age), high pay (assumption based on long lost history), and plenty of rest because of my easy lifestyle (not quite). Our careers are one of the most regulated in the world, you can literally lose your job every day you show up. The bar needs to be raised and I think it's only going to happen by public opinion, unions haven't been able to do jack except sell the profession down the river. It can't be entirely their fault, I used to have a toothless pitbull that I wasn't afraid of either.

 

[dojetdriver]

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Delay a flight to make a commute and possibly cause the paying passengers to miss their connection? Professionalism at it's finest.

Yes, you are so far. The "journalist" that wrote that took creative liberty to sensationalize the story, as well as get a bunch of other facts in that piece WRONG.

Think about it sport, that is if you're actually in this job. Who gets to "deadhead" home? Is what you tell people that are not in this industry if you commute? Again, the "journalist" that wrote it screwed up a bunch of things in that article, which is a shame.

 

[neflier]

Yes, you are so far. The "journalist" that wrote that took creative liberty to sensationalize the story, as well as get a bunch of other facts in that piece WRONG.

Think about it sport, that is if you're actually in this job. Who gets to "deadhead" home? Is what you tell people that are not in this industry if you commute? Again, the "journalist" that wrote it screwed up a bunch of things in that article, which is a shame.

Sorry, I missed the "deadhead" reference, only saw the "called a buddy to delay a flight so I could get home". Glad we both agree on how bad the "journalist" can report these things. I've seen crews delay flights to help a buddy, so when these practices get published, I take offense.

As far as being in the industry, if your screen name is accurate, then we probably flew together, or bid the same lines

TOGA to TEN!!!!!
ACO173

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I don't feel sorry for this guy, AT ALL!

He was talking about how his family sacrificed in the past, scrimped to get by, etc.

I understand if you want kids. BUT, you have ONE KID, and then, when you can afford it, you have more. This guy choose to have a bunch of kids, and then he's complaining? If he had two, I'll bet his financial situation would be VASTLY IMPROVED!

The big house, motorcycle, etc., etc. Surprised he wasn't bitching he had to downgrade to a smaller powerboat.

"I just made my bed, but I want to sleep in someone else's, much nicer bed!"

Hope he learned somthing worthwhile!

cliff
NBO

 

[dojetdriver]

Sorry, I missed the "deadhead" reference, only saw the "called a buddy to delay a flight so I could get home". Glad we both agree on how bad the "journalist" can report these things. I've seen crews delay flights to help a buddy, so when these practices get published, I take offense.

As far as being in the industry, if your screen name is accurate, then we probably flew together, or bid the same lines

TOGA to TEN!!!!!
ACO173

Awwwww dude, since you put it that way, I'm sorry to come off crass to you. As far as what really happened vs. what the guy wrote in the article, they are different. Unfortunately, the guy in the article has to go on a "clarification tour" of the various message boards to clear it up. As far as BL goes, he's a selfless stand up guy that goes to great lengths to help out our pilots as an MEC volunteer. Often times, banging his head up against a wall with management. Just like all the awesome guys we had representing us in LGA, BOS, and LGA.

BL is a friend of mine. Short version, BL is commuting home, has minimal time to make the commute (NOT DEADHEAD), knows the CA flying the flight. Calls him, requests that he not push early, but DO NOT CAUSE A DELAY for him. CA, obliges, flight pushes 1 minute prior to scheduled go time, and all is good in the universe. That is, till a bunghole "journalist" gets a hold of the story and takes it upon himself to fuk it up.

If you were a CA on the 328, good chance I flew with you. On it from 7/2000 till we flew em down to Myrtle Beach in 2004. A moment of silence for the 328, please.

Number 1 in IAD for July/August 2002, number 2 in BOS from Sept. 2002 till June 2004, number 2 in CVG from July 2004 till the end. Can't remember what I was in LGA, left at the end of June 2002. If I ever jacked a line from you wanted, sorry about that. I usually tried to call the guys bidding below me since we were such a tight group on the that airplane to see if they wanted a specific line if they had something going on, spend more time with their kids, etc do that I wouldn't bid it and free it up for them. Most lines on the plane kinda sucked anyway.

TOGA2TEN, bytches!!!!! Still got a sticker on my roller bag. Viva the Dojet.

Hi!

I don't feel sorry for this guy, AT ALL!

He was talking about how his family sacrificed in the past, scrimped to get by, etc.

I understand if you want kids. BUT, you have ONE KID, and then, when you can afford it, you have more. This guy choose to have a bunch of kids, and then he's complaining? If he had two, I'll bet his financial situation would be VASTLY IMPROVED!

The big house, motorcycle, etc., etc. Surprised he wasn't bitching he had to downgrade to a smaller powerboat.

"I just made my bed, but I want to sleep in someone else's, much nicer bed!"

Hope he learned somthing worthwhile!

cliff
NBO

Cliff, I KNOW you're on that "other board", so take a look at the thread and read the response from the person the article is about. I could say all sorts of condescending things about your situation and tell you that I have no sympathy for you, or what your "CEO" is dealing with since you make it so public, you're a good guy, but I won't. So do yourself a favor, and read the thread on the other place.

 

[Dornier 335]

I hate to say this, but usually big motorcycles & your wife don't mix. It's like kicking your feet up in front of the TV and she's telling that you're not doing anything.

Why should I feel for his self-inflicted financial misery?

How's the old airline pilot saying go? Something like "As your career progresses, keep your F/E wife, F/O house, and keep the CA money in the bank." Something like that... Anyway, I always thought it was pretty good advice.

That should be part of your upgrade indoc.

DoJetDriver question for you. Is the DoJet a different type than the Do prop?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I guess the real lesson is that he upgraded too fast, realistic upgrades don't happen in year two of your airline career. Long before the regionals it was sometimes the case that a new pilot at a major would sit sideways for a decade before even getting as spot as an FO and then Capt. Now, we just have join a regional, (the cheaper the better) and get your PIC logged in two years.

The difference is those F/E's were paid a livable wage. Today's "regional" FO's are not.

 

[Max Powers]

Other than pilots being underpaid; this article should be a lesson to every FO out there. When it comes time to upgrade, it doesn't mean you need to rush out and get a bigger house, and a Harley Davidson. If you managed to live on your salary + your wife's salary as an FO, then you don't need to increase your quality of life too much.

I'm not saying don't upgrade your quality of life a little by buying this or that. Just don't buy stuff (like a house) that you couldn't otherwise afford as an FO. Save most of the extra money! The next rainy day in this industry is probably right around the corner.

No surprise that many of the comments missed the point of what is wrong. Instead these Rush Limbaugh loving pilots blame the poor bloke who has dedicated his life to a challenging career which only a few can do and in return gets a steaming pile of crap for pay. RLA needs to be fixed and we need to be able to strike and have more strength in negotiating our pay. The guy has 4 kids and yes, he bought a Harley - I hardly think he is living extravagantly.

 

[Hawker dude]

TOGA to "10" RULES

 

[dojetdriver]

TOGA to "10" RULES

It's funny, toga 2 ten would only go about 2 to 2 1/2 minutes into a 5 minute limit on the engines on the 328.

In the EMB, you'd burn up the engines trying to get to 10K in TO RSV.

 

[Captainzero1]

I am a bit confused, he downgraded from capt to f/o and is only making $34K after all his years. Air Whiskey and Piedmont pay there fo's as much or more than that with less years on the job. What am I missing. I was always told expressjet had industry leading contract.

 

[dojetdriver]

I am a bit confused, he downgraded from capt to f/o and is only making $34K after all his years. Air Whiskey and Piedmont pay there fo's as much or more than that with less years on the job. What am I missing. I was always told expressjet had industry leading contract.

AGAIN, I'll repeat it. The "journalist" took so much freedom from face to face interviews, the phone interviews, and the emails to write the story as he saw fit.

The areas that BL tried to emphasize to the "journalist" got ignored, mainly the crappy pay and general decline of the profession.

Even at XJT, a 5th year CA couldn't do 100k a year as the article indicates. Unless he was a LCA, doing OE for 100 hours a month, EVERY month. The figures that BL gave the "journalist" were both best case and worst case.

You have to understand, this is an article in the N.Y. Times.

 

[dojetdriver]

DoJetDriver question for you. Is the DoJet a different type than the Do prop?

Yep,

DO-328
DO-328JET

 

[BushwickBill]

Awwwww dude, since you put it that way, I'm sorry to come off crass to you. As far as what really happened vs. what the guy wrote in the article, they are different. Unfortunately, the guy in the article has to go on a "clarification tour" of the various message boards to clear it up. As far as BL goes, he's a selfless stand up guy that goes to great lengths to help out our pilots as an MEC volunteer. Often times, banging his head up against a wall with management. Just like all the awesome guys we had representing us in LGA, BOS, and LGA.

BL is a friend of mine. Short version, BL is commuting home, has minimal time to make the commute (NOT DEADHEAD), knows the CA flying the flight. Calls him, requests that he not push early, but DO NOT CAUSE A DELAY for him. CA, obliges, flight pushes 1 minute prior to scheduled go time, and all is good in the universe. That is, till a bunghole "journalist" gets a hold of the story and takes it upon himself to fuk it up.

If you were a CA on the 328, good chance I flew with you. On it from 7/2000 till we flew em down to Myrtle Beach in 2004. A moment of silence for the 328, please.

Number 1 in IAD for July/August 2002, number 2 in BOS from Sept. 2002 till June 2004, number 2 in CVG from July 2004 till the end. Can't remember what I was in LGA, left at the end of June 2002. If I ever jacked a line from you wanted, sorry about that. I usually tried to call the guys bidding below me since we were such a tight group on the that airplane to see if they wanted a specific line if they had something going on, spend more time with their kids, etc do that I wouldn't bid it and free it up for them. Most lines on the plane kinda sucked anyway.

TOGA2TEN, bytches!!!!! Still got a sticker on my roller bag. Viva the Dojet.




Cliff, I KNOW you're on that "other board", so take a look at the thread and read the response from the person the article is about. I could say all sorts of condescending things about your situation and tell you that I have no sympathy for you, or what your "CEO" is dealing with since you make it so public, you're a good guy, but I won't. So do yourself a favor, and read the thread on the other place.

What other place? Pm me.

 

[Dan Roman]

A real good place to start would be tying FO pay to 60% of CA pay.

Who has even that these days, AWAC & ASA?

You are on to something there. That would do as much as any "minimum time requirements" that congress is considering.