XJ TA may be voted down

[XJ-spartacus]

Crunk,

Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of concessions of any kind. If ALPA had even a quarter of the strength that they claim to have, there wouldn't be any imposed terms. The NY Transit workers made it clear that they would strike with or without the courts approval. After 3 days of an illegal strike, they got their contract. A contract that was an improvement I might add. The only difference between those NY Transit reps and the reps at Mesaba is their committment to their principles. The union reps in NY weren't shaken by the threat of personal legal action, your's are. If they weren't, you wouldn't be voting on a 15% pay cut. I'm not trying to anger anyone, I'm just pointing out the obvious. I only hope that the pilots show both their reps, as well as their management, just how much they have been under estimated. God speed to those that choose to fight.

-Spartacus

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Thanks, Spartacus.

And just so we're all clear, Mesaba pilots are not taking a 15% pay cut. It would be a 5-5.5% wage reduction, plus other stuff added on, like loss of one week of vacation, uniform allowance, per diem freeze, etc.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

the problem is all those little things add up quick especially to the FO's

 

[eaglefly]

How our contract was approved is known and more complex than clearly most here know.

Excuse ?

Hardly.

The difference is that we've lived with it and know it's actually pretty good, looking at the landscape.

Spartacus got the message.

Lets examine this another way.

The circumstances presented to you are a sham. You have the power to determine such and elect to send a message that you value your worth more than the 7/11 working conditions (come to think of it, I don't know of ANY company in the United Staes of America that demandes 33% of their hard working employees, if they do offer health care) that are being OFFERED..............Yes, "offered".

Personally, I think you're worth more and it saddens me to see so many embrace victimization for the sake of a control yoke and set of power levers. But, if you accept this, than you're sending the message that it is acceptable.

I'm just saying, if you DO, then be happy.................you got your wish.

You're not helpless victims.............that is, unless you freely choose to be.

 

[Hulk Hogan]

All parties involved in this bankruptcy have admitted that concessions are/were needed. Sham bankruptcy?? That is your opinion, the other is fact created by union, mgt, and law. Fair or not is another question. I really don't understand how people can hold the line by jumping regionals. Leaving for a better paying fly job or the industry is the only way to hold the line. Not all involved are interested in giving up on aviation and some of those don't have the resources to make a positive move. I don't vote on this because of the furlough, but if this passes my decision will be difficult. You can count on me doing what is best for my family with my career ranking very low on importance. I'm a mistake or two away from no license and a bad mgt away from another furlough. My family has been there and I have faith they will be there in the future. Oh yeah Eagle, I don't need you or anyone else to cry for me, my son does that when they drop me at the airport and reminds me every time what this career is really made of. cya

 

[xjgearbtch]

There's alot of opinions flying around, I honestly believe this TA might not pass. Many people who I thought would vote yes are actually saying they won't. This is a different animal than our last TA and many people are viewing this differently the second time around. They've seen what the last yes vote got them. These ASA's that Nwa gave us mean nothing, they can and have changed them at will. We own no aircraft it's all NWA. They can shift the planes anywhere they want. Nothing is concrete at Mesaba and many are seeing the writting on the wall. It's a sham and at some point you have to put your foot down.
"We could live to fight another day", but how long will things improve at Mesaba until they beat us down again. Will we all get that PIC time to get out of this hell hold. I doubt it. Many may get to upgrade but even then there are too many lifers here. Unless there is a huge airplane order the majority of us will stay FO's or CA on reserve building 400 PIC one year at a time. While everyone else at the other regionals who already have PIC move on to the majors. If we don't vote this down it will follow us to any other regional we move to. Until ALPA is lead with stronger leadership, we will continue to be pawns, castaways.

When Mesaba hires again avoid it like the plague. You are better off going to Mesa or Go Jets it's all about PIC time. 7+ years at FO pay does no good for your career or family, PRIDE will not get you a job. ALPA has dropped the sword and expects us to fall on it once again. When we interview at a new airline someday they will not care if we "held the line" that we fought hard against managements shams they want PIC time.

So what do we do? They, management, have ruined our careers. We do our job safely and on time. They have failed us and expect us to fix their problems through our paycheck. I say no, make them pay, shut the place down and move on. They will have to replace us, hopefully many of us can get ahead and upgrade sooner at that airline. If not there are other airlines. Mesaba is not a reputable airline, managment has failed us. Right now we have nothing, to look foward to, but being a FO or Junior CA forever or furloughed. Take a risk it can't be worse than what it currently is.

 

[xjhawk]

I do not think so......

There is a ton of grumbling on the line. Talk of taking the hard road. When the TA first came out it could of passed, now with time it looks like many are changing their minds.

Anyone else catching this vibe in MSP and MEM?

No I am not catching this vibe in either MEM or MSP. I would have to think there have been 4-5 people who are grumbling about how bad of a deal this is when we talk about it in the crewroom or in the plane (not while flying ofcourse) Most that i have seen are not happy with the deal, but are accepting its the best deal we may get considering the bankruptcy laws and the courts. Anyways i am predicting a 70/30 pass. I am not happy with it, but i see it as a point to move on from.

 

[XJXJXJ]

How our contract was approved is known and more complex than clearly most here know.

Excuse ?

Hardly.

The difference is that we've lived with it and know it's actually pretty good, looking at the landscape.

Spartacus got the message.


You're not helpless victims.............that is, unless you freely choose to be.

Spartacus is leaving for SWA soon.

Only 3 groups would not ratify the TA

#1 Furloughed Pilots
#2 Ex XJers
#3 Those moving on to greener pastures

It's easy to talk big when you aren't counting on Mesaba. The silent majority will easily ratify the TA.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Spartacus is leaving for SWA soon.

Only 3 groups would not ratify the TA

#1 Furloughed Pilots
#2 Ex XJers
#3 Those moving on to greener pastures

It's easy to talk big when you aren't counting on Mesaba. The silent majority will easily ratify the TA.

DING DING DING we have a winner.... And groups 1 and 2 (probably better than 1/3 of the list) don't get a vote. Not to mention how many of group 3 won't vote either.

 

[Dodge]

That is exactly the problem. The only people who would vote this down are those that refused to "count on Mesaba" for anything ever again. As far as greener pastures to go to, one does not need to look very hard to find some. If this TA passes, Mesaba will be just about the worst place to work for. But I guess that beats getting a resume put together and studying for an interview.

What is the provision in the TA for your 3 weeks of vacation when:
a. You gave away 1 week
b. They cancel another (this never happens, does it?)
c. They cancel 2 weeks because you put them together

I hope XJ gets 60 airplanes out of this. That would bring the staffing levels up to 1999-2000.

 

[XJPilot547]

Oh so there are valid reasons for Eagle's sorry contract but not for anyone at XJ. Kind of a double standard, don't you think. You say it's pretty good looking at the landscape. Interesting. How about our landscape. Our grass isn't so green. There are no guarantees that we will win another appeal. Look at the NWA FAs. They've been waiting for months with no end in sight. I'm sure if we hold this supposed line and have mgmt terms imposed, you will be in our crewroom writing checks to make up our loss. Yeah right. I voted no in 04 and voted no to this TA. However, if it passes, I will go along with my brothers and sisters here at XJ. I don't really care what eagle has to say about that.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Besides, XJ will probably have gone through 2 more contracts, another bankruptcy, and a merger before Eagle is even amendable.

Just kidding, guys.

 

[airmasn]

What I cant stand is that you guys on the sidelines throwing rocks at the XJ pilots seem to think there is a way to win this game.

At Mesaba, there is no holding out for a better deal. If the TA gets voted down, we live under the latest imposed term sheet. The dip financing is being accessed with or without a deal. In the mean time, XJ moves forward with whatever plans they have and we live under terms that clearly undercut the industry and make it more difficult to feed and care for our families. How does that serve us or any other regional pilot groups' best interest? Now their company has the template to rape their pilots the same way.

Or door number 2: vote for a TA that does not undercut the industry and actually recaptures the wage and benefit losses at year 4, bringing the pilots back above the industry and back to current book. All the work rules: min day, 11 days off, 75 hour guarantee, and sick pay at 100% remain intact, all things that were under attack by XJ management.

The whole bankruptcy process has been complete bull$hit but we can't do anything about that. The courts hate us and Bush would probably prevent a strike in the 1 in a million chance we were actually awarded such a right. This whole process has been stop-loss damage control. It sucks...we didnt ask for this. But working under an imposed deal does not serve the interests of XJ pilots or the airline industry.

p.s. we dont need any integrity speeches from pilots who ever paid for their training either.

 

[201 Poplar]

My concern is that our union has yet to tells us the "what if?" I have voted no on principal, and what if the rest of us do the same. What happens next, and what are our options now?

The company WON'T impose or they would have done this long ago!!!

 

[ATA73Pilot]

Or door number 2: vote for a TA that does not undercut the industry and actually recaptures the wage and benefit losses at year 4, bringing the pilots back above the industry and back to current book.

Be careful on thinking that this will actually happen. In my career I have been through several ALPA contracts - some which contained this so-called snap-back provision.

It is a carrot-stick mentality. Ask around. How many pilot groups with so called snap-back provisions actually were able to see them take effect.

When the time rolls around - the company will find some excuse to avoid the snap-backs. There will be much chest-thumping by the pilots. But in the end a new side-letter of agreement will be negotiated effectively bypassing the snap-back.

Good Luck - you guys are in a tough spot.

 

[airmasn]

"The company WON'T impose or they would have done this long ago!!!"???

please...

The company won't do anything until big daddy NWA tells them to. Doesnt it make you wonder that over the last 12 months XJ couldnt get a deal with anybody? then, in the course of 5 days, they had 3???

also, XJ filed the 8K paperwork last week with the SEC to access the dip financing of $24 million. they cannot touch it without a deal, imposed or a TA. if the TA gets shot down and they want to access the funds, how do you think they will do it...?

the company is ready to move forward and they will do it with or without us. again, my question is, how does an imposed deal on the pilots serve our interests or the reginal airline industry's? it doesnt, it only makes things worse for everyone. there is no holding out for better...

 

[saabservant]

My concern is that our union has yet to tells us the "what if?" I have voted no on principal, and what if the rest of us do the same. What happens next, and what are our options now?

The company WON'T impose or they would have done this long ago!!!

Bingo...They have blinked twice.
I understand why one would vote for this ta, but i am choosing to fight this, and am willing to suffer the consequences (possible imposition), because I am willing to move on.
The decision on the aircraft has already been made. They won't come here under imposed conditions, because they are fearful of the chaos on line.
Where do they go then? Compass? Not even close to being up and running...
Pinnacle? In the middle of a section 6 beatdown? Nope.
This kind of fraud and theft against a work group needs to be fought even harder. Just my opinion.

 

[WTF-Over]

I depend on my income from XJ. But I am voting NO to this worthless piece of crap. Because I am NOT going to sell my soul because I'm to scared to risk loosing my job at XJ. The "live to fight another day" crowd are nothing but cowards that might as well say.."I'll drop my drawers and bend over today so hopefully I won't have to another day!!"
Come--on..pull up your pants, get a backbone and fight. Vote no, and fight today. If you vote yes then the SLT has already won simply because they achived thier goal of wearing you down to the point of voting yes for anything.

 

[A19]

I voted No as well. Yes, I want to thank the MEC and the negotiating commitee. They did their best with what was thrust on them. However, I am not going to reward the SLT for the lies, deciet, the lives they affected, all because of this SHAM BK!


"p.s. we dont need any integrity speeches from pilots who ever paid for their training either."

And no I did not pay for my training, XJ paid for it when I was a hew hire, when I upgraded, downgraded, then upgraded again, then downgraded again.

 

[Positive Rate]

I m...A BIG NO..to the T.A......Man the redtail family sucks....and they are going to keep sucking the life right from under us......In some ways...its just spite....to say no for me..and in other ways....its why say yes....what have they done for us latley?......When something is "negotiated" its always turned around later and it never happens.....they out of any airline out there..dangle that carret and yet to feed us with that carrot.............The BK=false........so they can suck my balls along with that carrot.............

 

[CarRamRod]

No No No No No, by the way bye

I was able to vote before I jumped ship, GOOD LUCK!


NO

 

[n32jk]

Well looking at the bullet points I will say that the XJ negotiating committee deserves a lot of credit. I am a pilot for 9E. IF the TA is approved you will not hear me boo hoo ing the XJ group. I do not like concessions, but what was accomplished there has some very interesting things. Snap backs at time or earlier with growth. Preservation of work rules that are very good for this level of the industry. AND most of all the provision for COLA's after amendable date passes. EVERY pilot group should make that last item a strike issue in negotiations. I realize that the bankruptcy was a MAIR scam, but the judges allowed it. The limited cuts along with snap backs makes this deal one that no one at XJ should be ashamed of either way that they vote.

Pilots at XJ should vote their hearts on this one. Either way, the proposal shows that the pilots DID show XJ management that they could not DICTATE a contract and expect to survive.

I see some 9E pilots urging a no vote. I can only hope they have the same resolve when the time comes at our property. It is very easy to advise someone else's career decisions.

Good luck and good job XJ either way it goes!

 

[xjlifer]

Well looking at the bullet points I will say that the XJ negotiating committee deserves a lot of credit. I am a pilot for 9E. IF the TA is approved you will not hear me boo hoo ing the XJ group. I do not like concessions, but what was accomplished there has some very interesting things. Snap backs at time or earlier with growth. Preservation of work rules that are very good for this level of the industry. AND most of all the provision for COLA's after amendable date passes. EVERY pilot group should make that last item a strike issue in negotiations. I realize that the bankruptcy was a MAIR scam, but the judges allowed it. The limited cuts along with snap backs makes this deal one that no one at XJ should be ashamed of either way that they vote.

Pilots at XJ should vote their hearts on this one. Either way, the proposal shows that the pilots DID show XJ management that they could not DICTATE a contract and expect to survive.

I see some 9E pilots urging a no vote. I can only hope they have the same resolve when the time comes at our property. It is very easy to advise someone else's career decisions.

Good luck and good job XJ either way it goes!

Very well said....thank you.

But be warned..voices of reason are soon shouted down around this place.

 

[othello]

Still sticking to my 75-85% pass.

But the same 10-12 guys are loud as ever. I think they think were gonna hold out til we get a raise while trying to emerge from bankrupcy. Maybe some extra days off while were at it.

Were Bankrupt! We went to court and fought a hard fight, we kept full pay for over a year. But WE LOST. WE LOST. Is it setting in yet? It sucks big time the judge was against us the rules were against us and still are. No matter how many times we appeal the company is Bankrupt and will cut cost B4 they emerge.

 

[saabservant]

Othello:

Your point is correct, however, there 100MILLION DOLLARS in that bank account set up by those MAIR crooks.
The funds to restructure, pay debts, and re-stock the fleet are THERE, NOT in the pockets of their employees.
I do not believe that nwa or mair will let their investment here die, just because this ta is rejected and the appeals continue. All that is LEVERAGE against management, which needs a deal to placate the unsecured creditors and to place aircraft.
If the TA fails, we simply negotiate for better terms, with the appeals over their heads.
If it passes, we move on, knowing we could have pressed them harder, and learn our lessons for next time, which WILL come.
Here's to a little resolve...

By the way, it is not the same 10 guys. I have listened to pilots all over our system, and many are willing to fight. Do not belittle those who are trying to uphold some sense of decency in this company by saying they are only marginal.

 

[WTF-Over]

We haven't lost ANYTHING YET!!!

 

[sf3boy]

Fuuny how the money was supposed to run out long ago, but yet.......we keep operating. How is that? I say do nothing until they impose terms. Why give up anything until you have to?

Those that have the mentality "we lost" "runaway today" and so on, thank goodness you aren't into coaching/teaching or another profession that requires a spine and some fire in your belly to do something when you have gotten your d!ck knocked in the dirt. You are like the pathetic kid in school that refuses to fight back when a bully messes with you. Guess what, the bully doesn't stop until you make him stop. Where were your fathers?????

Snapbacks.....ha ha ha. Management says they can't honor the current contract and we should believe that they will another the next? Sorry, but I was fooled/schooled in 2004. I infact learn from history.

NO!!

 

[A19]

Fuuny how the money was supposed to run out long ago, but yet.......we keep operating. How is that? I say do nothing until they impose terms. Why give up anything until you have to?

Those that have the mentality "we lost" "runaway today" and so on, thank goodness you aren't into coaching/teaching or another profession that requires a spine and some fire in your belly to do something when you have gotten your d!ck knocked in the dirt. You are like the pathetic kid in school that refuses to fight back when a bully messes with you. Guess what, the bully doesn't stop until you make him stop. Where were your fathers?????

Snapbacks.....ha ha ha. Management says they can't honor the current contract and we should believe that they will another the next? Sorry, but I was fooled/schooled in 2004. I infact learn from history.

NO!!

Well said!

 

[Regional4life]

Othello:

Your point is correct, however, there 100MILLION DOLLARS in that bank account set up by those MAIR crooks.
The funds to restructure, pay debts, and re-stock the fleet are THERE, NOT in the pockets of their employees.
I do not believe that nwa or mair will let their investment here die, just because this ta is rejected and the appeals continue. All that is LEVERAGE against management, which needs a deal to placate the unsecured creditors and to place aircraft.
If the TA fails, we simply negotiate for better terms, with the appeals over their heads.
If it passes, we move on, knowing we could have pressed them harder, and learn our lessons for next time, which WILL come.
Here's to a little resolve...

By the way, it is not the same 10 guys. I have listened to pilots all over our system, and many are willing to fight. Do not belittle those who are trying to uphold some sense of decency in this company by saying they are only marginal.

You are absolutely correct. They won't let it die. IF the TA is no, then they impose, simply put. They have the cash from the creditors committee already, regardless of the turnout of the vote. And, if they still think that their is to much "instability" within the labor groups, ie MX's, FA's, and pilots, then they liquidate the flight ops portion and strictly become a ground services handler - which preserves their investment and still makes cash. Either way, they won't let Mesaba die, but then again, they may not let it "fly". Yes, pun intended.

 

[Positive Rate]

Gordy would be so proud!!!!....yes sarcasm....