WWYD NetJets or Delta?

[On Your Six]

Completely different types of flying. Apples to oranges. Do you want routine or a bit of variety? Do you want to know your schedule for the entire year (7/7 at Netjets)? Do you need to fly a big, shiney jet to feel good about yourself? Both are very strong operations with Netjets as market leader and Delta on a much better foundation than it was pre-Chap 11th - it's like a different carrier with a much better financial outlook and route network. Today's Delta is on much stronger ground than yesterday's Delta and it won't be fighting for scraps like the LCC carriers due to its strong and growing international/domestic network.

I know friends at both and I know people who are planning to leave their current flying jobs for opportunities at both. For me, I am done with 121 flying - I flew for UAL pre 9/11 and I couldn't stand 121 boredom - but that is just me. To each his own. I think you could make viable arguments for both options and win either way....

P.S. I like these X vs. Y carrier posts because we get to learn so much more about the choices (until people get personal).

 

[altscap]

PF

You sound like one of the few happy pilots I've heard on this board. I wonder if you've ever been called in to the CP's office because you gave a complaining passenger the number to the corporate office and told them the name of your CEO. A friend of mine got an unpaid three-day vacation for providing good customer service in this way.

Naturally, everyone's perspective is different. It seems you have forgotten what it's like at the lower levels of the industry or have never worked for a tyrannical mgmt. team. Enjoy cloud nine my friend, you are where many of us are still trying to get to. (not a personal attack, but I wonder if you can see other peoples perspectives in this racket)

 

[learflyer]

That's what they said about Eastern. And Braniff. And TWA. And Pan Am. The fact that DAL just came out of bankruptcy is a clue that there's a long road ahead to any kind of security.



No aviation job is guaranteed to be around in the future. Not NJA, not Delta. If I had to put my money on only one of the two being around in 20 hours, it'd be NetJets.

Come on man, even flops will be around for 20 hours!:beer:

 

[learflyer]

deleted

 

[tbkane]

Having worked at both I would say Delta hands down. I was at NJ for almost two years and I have been back at Delta now for six months. I am on reserve I do commute and life couldn't be better at DAL. I was not a fan of not knowing where your going, catering to rich people cleaning lavs, etc.

PM and I can tell you more.

 

[Usual Suspect]

I work at NetJets and I've read several threads in which references are made to us having to clean lavs. To be clear, we don't have to clean the lavs. If the lav requires servicing, we will be reimbursed up to $20 no questions asked for a lav servicing. If someone's ass exploded back there, then we can have the company arrange for a professional cleaning crew to come and take care of it, or pay the FBO line service personnel whatever it costs for them to do it. If it costs $40, then pay it and submit a business card from the FBO with an explanation and we'll be reimbursed. This goes for anything unusual that happens. For example, if someone vomited, spilled their food on the floor, dropped a bottle of red wine, etc.

Remember, the cabin has to be in good condition for the next customer, or the plane is taken out of service. I've personally grounded a plane a couple of times until cleaning crews were sent out to clean up the cabin. Once because the line guy spilled blue juice on the carpet when he overserviced the lav, and another time when I found what I was pretty sure was a puddle of melted ice cream but could have been vomit when I picked up a new plane.

Having said that, we do normally do the routine tidying up between flights including wiping off tables and vacuuming. If you don't want to do even that, again you can have the line guy do it for you and be reimbursed. We use Signature quite a lot and you can always ask them for a q-cart, which is their portable cleaning cart and they'll generally do a real thorough job. But most of our planes have 7-10 seats, and most of our pax flights are 4 or less pax at a time, so it's usually quicker to just do it yourself.

 

[tbkane]

To be honest yes you don't have to "clean" the lav but on the Ultra you have to take the honey pot out and have it serviced. The ramp guys usually will say they don't know how to. As far as grounding airplanes that all depends on the captain and if he is or is not a union man. I had to clean up dog poop in the back of a cabin and the captain would not ground the airplane. The owner came up and told me there was a problem in the back that someone's dog had crapped on the floor (she was the only owner we had on the plane with a dog in five days but made it sound like it wasn't her fefe). As an fo your pilot and flight attendant unless you get lucky and get a flight attendant....

 

[bailey3083]

It is simple. You wanna work for your money, get to see great places and have a ball for your money then go to the Fracs. if you want to be a lazy ass who just shows up 30 mins prior and just to fly a plane then go to Delta. Trust me this comes from 6 yrs Part 121 and now Frac. The Frac is the best job hands down but I have seen at all Fracs the guys who are not willing to work for their paycheck usually leave and go to 121 so they can just close the door and let everyone else do the job.

Bailey

 

[Mooneymite]

DAL v NJA

I flew for Delta for 28 years and now work at NJA. Here are a couple of other things to consider:

NJA features 7 days on/7 days off. If you have a family with small children, 7 days gone is an eternity. Delta gives you the choice of 1, 2, 3, or 4 day trips...some longer on the international. I don't mind the 7 day trips, but my wife doesn't like them at all and when my kids were small, they probably wouldn't have remembered me after a 7 day trip!

The flying: Delta flying is, generally speaking, mostly boring. NJA flying is rarely boring because you'll go so many different places. After a few years at Delta, you will know every hotel and every terminal and will have eaten at all the favorite layover restaurants. You will know the price of a beer and which hotels have freebees. At NetJets, you'll only know the hotels for a few of our "core" cities, most layovers are an adventure.

I do believe that until you get 400 - 500 guys under you at Delta, you will have little, or no job security. The old Delta is gone. This management will furlough at the first sign of a downturn. I believe the market dynamics at NJA are such that a newhire is pretty safe. However good the pay at NetJets is, I don't think you can look forward to what you'll be making at Delta when you retire.

No doubt that you will work MUCH harder at NJA than at Delta. At Delta, you fly.....period. At NJA, you will do everything that needs to be done. The NJA dispatchers are good, but you've got to watch them and check everything. At Delta, you will not be doing anything that hasn't been done hundreds of times before; the dispatchers rarely let anything slip by them. At Delta, complacency is the enemy, at NJA, fatigue is the enemy.

At NJA you will never get a chance to fly the "heavy metal". NJA has three 737's flown by pilots with singel digit seniority numbers. At Delta, the 737, is the "light twin" of the fleet. At NJA, some of the aircraft feature autoflight systems that wouldn't get certified on an airliner. Delta's equipment is top notch and its fleet will soon be replaced with the latest and greatest if they don't go bankrupt again.

As much as NJA pilots tell you about the free airline miles we accumulate, the Delta pass priveleges are worth a lot more. Even as a retiree, I travel pretty much when and where and as much as I wish.

Were I faced with your decision, I'd go to Delta now and maybe go to NJA in retirement or during furlough.

And, yes, I got screwed by Delta when I retired.

 

[old*art]

If you go to Delta PLEASE do not come to NJA when you retire. If I have to try to get another retired airline pilot up to speed ......

 

[Mooneymite]

If you go to Delta PLEASE do not come to NJA when you retire. If I have to try to get another retired airline pilot up to speed ......

I represent that remark!

 

[Dr Pepper]

Pat Fabian - WTF? Your post is tirate, yet your second has good info in it, and your third was about half and half. If you don't like a subject matter, then skip those posts. As for making a decision, I am simply looking for all the facts as well as opinions. I want to know if I may have overlooked something or looked at something incorrectly. My math shows more money at NJA in the long run doing the bare mins and working in the least paying aircraft. Others seem to think DAL will generate greater wealth. That is the type of info I am looking for.

Altscap,
Bad news dude. I know no one at Delta or NetJets. I applied the first week the app window went open. I know people at CAL and that has not gotten me an interview. I have all the requirements for UPS and have not gotten an interview. Stuff happens that is unexplainable. Good luck.

To those that have contributed their opinions and facts, thank you. Neither one of these worlds is quite like the flying in the military (big but not shiny jets) and I am ignorant to both Fracs and 121. I appreciate the insiders info.

 

[gunfyter]

. My math shows more money at NJA in the long run doing the bare mins and working in the least paying aircraft. .

I like to see that math.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I'd like to see that math.

I think Pepper's math takes into account 3.2 furloughs, an ALPA seniority integration based on anything BUT seniority and 3 divorces to make it to the "widebody captain's club".

It's like the old Tortise and the Hare story or a Peppy LePeu cartoon.

 

[Allen1]

I've been at the regionals for over seven years and thought about going to fractionals in the past. I don't know how old you are but let's assume you are in your early thirties....

I personally would go to DAL- you could always STILL go to Netjets in the future if there is another 9/11 type disaster that gets you furloughed at a major. Commuting as a part 121 guy/gal is at least doable and allows you to live almost anywhere. I'm not sure I would try and commute at all (or even how to go about doing it) as a fractional pilot.

Plus, if you get fed up with part 121 flying in your early fifties (assuming the age 60 rule stays the same) then you could still go to NJA and get a good 15 plus years out of it. You would have been able to see both worlds that way if you so desired.

I personally don't think you could easily go to NJA for the next 15 years and then try and switch to an airline. No one would take you seriously in the interview.

Lastly, DAL has probably the BEST travel benefits of any major airline. You and your family can see the world if you want for free if you go at an off-peak time. I guess you could do this to a certain extent with skymiles (generated as a passenger getting to flights for the fractional), but you couldn't do it as often as you could at a major.

Could you please enlighten us as to why NJA pilots wouldn't be taken seriously at an interview? I know NJA pilots that have gone to UPS, Fedex, Continental and other majors. So please let me know why.

 

[Allen1]

I am lucky enough to have job offers to NJA and DAL. I do not have a class date for DAL yet. I am LA bound for NJA. I have been looking at all the variables and have determined that both would be good.

Money - both suck as an FO, but NJA sucks more. As a Capt, NJA eventually appears to win out when you include soft money (holiday, per diem take home vs intl).

Insurance - NJA seems to win.

Travel benefits - DAL clear winner

Retirement - NJA has 50% match, DAL has 2% 401K no match required and 9% contribution into B-Fund. Dealers choice on the winner here. If you can afford to max out, NJA wins. If not, DAL.

Domicile - I am not a huge fan of any of them at DAL and would likely be a commuter. NJA domicile system sucks as well. It is unlikely, in my opinion, that it will ever change. Old guys won't support getting rid of it at if it affects their bottom line and unless you are in LA or TEB, you might not care too much either. I am wondering how people survive in LA. That is a lifetime of Top Ramen. This is a huge factor that gives me the most grief because it affects the next section.

QOL - Commuting would suck - DAL. Living in a closet would suck - NJA in LA. Who is the bigger pain in the arse over the years? Filthy rich or the people in the cattle cars? This is probably one of the more subjective categories to consider, but probably one of the most important

Flying - Knowing where you are going and when, or not having a clue until the gear is up. I have done the later with the military and as long as I am not the one dispatching, I have no problem with that.

Upgrade time guess - NJA 3-5 years people say. DAL 5-10 years thanks to 65.

Short term job security - NJA.

Long term job security - DAL, Delta's pilots will always be around in some form or fashion. NJA could get liquidated if an Aetna guy takes over Berkshire someday and wonders why they have an airline (assume RS and WB are dead).

Have I missed anything to consider? Who would you go with?

Why are you even asking this question? You already know you're going to Delta, if you're trying to brag about just start a thread saying I'm going to delta and your not.

 

[Diesel]

I wouldn't base a job on travel benefits (begging for a ride)

My wife is trying to get to cdg. She's on the third flight of the night still waiting waiting waiting.

Yeah I'll use my miles and buy a positive space ticket over that "travel bennie" anytime.

 

[realityman]

Could you please enlighten us as to why NJA pilots wouldn't be taken seriously at an interview? I know NJA pilots that have gone to UPS, Fedex, Continental and other majors. So please let me know why.

It probably doesn't help that we refuse to remove the big red clown noses and giant oversized shoes before the interview.........

 

[DO-82 driver]

Believe me...its not bragging when you talk about going to ANY major airline.

Delta, Union Continental American, SouthWest JetBlue...all included. You're just setting yourself up for the next round of furlough/concessions.

Good luck out there folks.....it ain't what it used to be.

 

[Mooneymite]

Travel Bennies

I wouldn't base a job on travel benefits (begging for a ride)

My wife is trying to get to cdg. She's on the third flight of the night still waiting waiting waiting.

Yeah I'll use my miles and buy a positive space ticket over that "travel bennie" anytime.

Diesel, non-rev travel is a skill that one hones over a career. You didn't mention what sort of a pass or ticket your wife was on, but Delta provides a web-site that allows you to avoid heavily booked or over booked flights. Non-rev travel is, just as you say, "begging for a ride".

Just as you wouldn't ask a street person for a hand-out, you don't try to non-rev on certain flights. I've heard hundreds of horror stories about non-revs being stranded in all sorts of places. That's the downside of getting a free ride. I can tell you that with care and pre-planning, my family (we had six kids!) and I travelled virtually everywhere we wanted and in 28 years, we spent exactly two unplanned nights in a hotel. Not a bad record for a gazillion (that's more than a hundred) free flights, many in first class or busines class!

Is it worth making a career decision over? Heck, no.

Is it a nice benefit? Yes, it is a whale of a good benefit.

Since this thread was ostensibly about DAL v NJA, various aspects weigh in. My personal opinion is that non-rev on Delta beats the airline miles I get from NetJets. Both are great benefits, but they are not equal.