Wwjd?

[Timebuilder]

I think we are very close to being in agreement.

Our laws are how our society brings individual agreement on behavior into a codified form. We discipline our children because it is in the interest of all of society that our children become moral citizens.

Recently, fewer people have come to regard that idea as being foundational, and it has much do do with the destruction of the family. That destruction is due primarily to the rejection of accepted moral standards.

 

[skyking1976]

TB:

I think we are after the same result: A society in which no one infringes upon anothers personal freedoms. We just have different ideas of what is considered personal freedom.

I like to think that disciplining children is not necessarily in society's best interest, as it is in our childrens' best interest to prepare them for society. I have always thought that the true measure of a parent is how well your children turn out later in life.

I agree with the last paragraph. Rejection of moral standards (lack of discipline) denegrates society. Those standards are what allow us to call ourselves civilized.

 

[Timebuilder]

I like to think that disciplining children is not necessarily in society's best interest, as it is in our childrens' best interest to prepare them for society.

In addition, we want OTHER parents to raise their children well, so that they do not prey upon us or our friends later. When they fail, or don't share our mores and cultural tenets, we all suffer. There is a Proverb that addresses this perfectly, 22:6 :

Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.


This question of government as moral "advocate" is where the individual aspects of freedom come into play: the right to free association (sometimes this means the right to discriminate, doesn't it?) the right to share beliefs with others, the right to create and support legislation as an active and aware citizen, following one's complete set of beliefs with the mission of retaining the good and preventing the bad; the essence of conservatism. As good citizens share their beliefs in a codified statute, we all benefit from the clear expression of our morality as a society.

Much of what we valued as a culture did not need to be codified until recently, such as the idea of "marriage." Now, we are facing a crisis where an amendment may be necessary. Most likely, it is because children are raised in public schools without "discernment," and they are thus losing the ability to detect and reject abhorrent and/or disgusting behavior. Stigma and shame are powerful motivators in an orderly society. Rejecting stigma and shame are typical of the "reasonable" and "progressive" ideas that are a part of the cancer in our society today. Those ideas are the internal workings of our moral clockwork.

 

[100LL... Again!]

donkey balls?

yawn.

so much for raising the level of invective to something more scintillating.

_________________________________________


As to this quote:

...nothing personal TB but ALL people of faith feel this way, that a person can't be moral unless they 'believe' which is a highly segregationist and elitest ideology to profer.



Here's the problem - the opposite viewpoint is also equally elitist.
You see why? People of faith get their moral rules from their faith.

People of the secularist persuasion get their moral rules from...THEMSELVES! Sorry to seem like a punk, but I see that as equally elitist, if not more.

If you deny the existence of a higher moral authority (God), then all basis for laws and social mores are reduced to the majority forcing its views on the majority.

This essentially allows anything - as long as you have a majority.
Remember, slavery was once legal, because everyone agreed it should be.

If you don't acknowledge a higher authority, then anything goes, right? It's only a matter of opinion.

 

[spongebob]

WTF, over

God! I hope I never have to fly with some self-righteous, brainwashed ideologue like timebuilder. As for the rest of you, never argue with a fanatic.

SB

 

[Timebuilder]

Wow! MORE AGREEMENT!

This is too weird.

I was just thinking that I hope I never have to fly with you, either, sponge.

Too strange.

Is the moon in the seventh house? Has Jupiter aligned with Mars?

It must be the dawning of the.......

 

[skyking1976]

Wow! MORE AGREEMENT!

This is too weird.

I was just thinking that I hope I never have to fly with you, either, sponge.

Too strange.

Is the moon in the seventh house? Has Jupiter aligned with Mars?

It must be the dawning of the.......

I feel a 5th Dimension song coming on...

 

[100LL... Again!]

Poor spongebob has been brainwashed into thinking that no ideologies are valid.

Sorry you are so adrift in post-modern relativism.

See? Implying brainwashing is a very weak debate tactic.

Even someone who knows the truth about an issue could have been brainwashed into it.

Again, becomes he-said-she-said.

Facts, facts, facts, my friend.

Or, a logical development of your position with point-by-point refutations of the other viewpoint.

Just accuse him of being a nazi and get it over with.

Game over. Try again.