WSJ: Pilots Fail to Engage Jet Engines

[B.T.Justice]

I guess a lot more thought was put into the Bombardier products. The TAKEOFF CONFIG OK message is automatic, and monitors a lot more than just trim and flaps

 

[Fltlvls]

I'm curious about pilot deviations at the regionals compared to the majors.

 

[rjacobs]

I guess a lot more thought was put into the Bombardier products. The TAKEOFF CONFIG OK message is automatic, and monitors a lot more than just trim and flaps

The EMB has an automatic system as well, but its not activated until you push the thrust levers into the detent, which could be to late to correct an issue. Most planes have a takeoff config button including almost every Boeing I have ever been on.

 

[SLUF4]

well i didn't know about it not having a shutoff detent. is there a "both engines running" item on the before takeoff check? lol, if not there will be soon

 

[pilotyip]

well i didn't know about it not having a shutoff detent. is there a "both engines running" item on the before takeoff check? lol, if not there will be soon

Not to mention a new final item on the line up checklist. That must be done only when the airplane is aligned on the take off runway. The item is “Take off Runway”, response “Confirmed” Our Fed wants this at our airline in response to a bulletin issued last month.

 

[rumrunner300]

Whoa calm down broseph....we're only talking about hull losses here.

Forgetting to turn on an engine...basic...but it's not like pilots haven't forgotten simple things before right?

Forgetting to FLY THE AIRPLANE because a gear light came on
Forgetting to stow the spoilers when GPWS alerts you to a Colombian mountain in front of you.
Running out of gas countless times

All those things have happened....we've just gotta learn from them. Were those pilots 250 hour wonder kids? No. Was at least one of the CAs in the "oops, didn't start an engine" a 250 hour wonder kid? Nope.

...but what do I know...I'm not making sense...I must have never done grueling turboprop flying or must be a 250 hour vonderyouth.

Amidoingitrite?

I know, that was pure flamebait and I expected it would generate far more vitriol than it did. My button pushing skills must have atrophied. (chances are I did not spell that right)

Just like the childrens book, no matter who you are you will eventually poop (sometimes even the bed).

rr

 

[ehaecker]

I'm curious about pilot deviations at the regionals compared to the majors.

I was following an NWA DC-9 into Fargo a few months ago and witnessed the following:
Fargo Approach: "Northwest XXX, say speed."
NWA: "310 knots."
Fargo Approach: "You need to be at 250 knots or less below 10,000 sir."
NWA: "Ah... Roger..."

The good thing about this is we didn't have to slow down or take vectors for spacing :laugh:

 

[twighead]

Solution: never single engine taxi.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

I know, that was pure flamebait and I expected it would generate far more vitriol than it did. My button pushing skills must have atrophied. (chances are I did not spell that right)

Just like the childrens book, no matter who you are you will eventually poop (sometimes even the bed).

rr

Bah, you got me! I need to lay off the Tyrosine and SuperPump 250 for a while....


...but I'm really mirin' my gains though....

Solution: never single engine taxi.

I know right!?!?!?

 

[HoserASA]

Not throwing stones here, but last week at VPS we were holding on a twy waiting for a verrrry slow taxing EMB (airline I won't say) to pass by so we could continue to the terminal. As they went past we could see the FO's side window completely blocked with a sunshade.

Hoser
ROLL TIDE!

 

[Moustache]

"Takeoff Okay"[/QUO.aMebfc.QCV

 

[Moustache]

I guess a lot more thought was put into the Bombardier products. The TAKEOFF CONFIG OK message is automatic, and monitors a lot more than just trim and flaps

They just overlooked comfort

 

[The Boss]

Not throwing stones here, but last week at VPS we were holding on a twy waiting for a verrrry slow taxing EMB (airline I won't say) to pass by so we could continue to the terminal. As they went past we could see the FO's side window completely blocked with a sunshade.

If it was a reflective sunshade, then it is factory installed and you can see through it.

 

[jmreii]

Solution: never single engine taxi.

Pay attention to what you are doing and what's going on around you, it won't be a problem. Sounds like situational awareness to me!

 

[CX880]

Solution: never single engine taxi.

I agree. They should fill them up with gas like it's 1 dollar a gallon.

 

[billystack]

SE taxi technique

A technique that I've used for single engine taxiing is to significantly dim the mfd or pfd on the side that the engine is out, that way you have a very obvious visual aid reminding you're not ready for takeoff.

 

[Dornier 335]

Ehe ERJ has a hydraulic pump that makes a god awful noise when only one engine is running. What I don't get is didn't the pilots in the back on that ferry flight tell the guys that engine was not started as they were about to take the runway? They were probably already asleep due to 15 hour day.

Not entirely true. The hydraulic pump making it's loud whining noise is #1 and kicks in when engine #1 is not running, because of the nose wheel steering. If my memory serves me right, this particular check airman preferred to s.e. taxi with engine #1 running so he wouldn't have to hear this god awful noise.

Additionally, TSA had a checklist for "after starting second engine" or whatever it was called. That indicates to me that there might have been some additional cockpit distraction at the time.

 

[glasspilot]

Having a procedure to remind you to start the engines is like having a procedure to remind you which way to move the yoke to flare.

If you can't remember to start your engines and can't figure it out prior to taking the runway then maybe you are in the wrong line of work.

 

[Flyer1015]

At least in the CRJ2, with one engine still shut, you should have 3 msgs. 1 master warning for OIL PRESS, and 2 cautions for fuel pump and fuel low press. And you shouldn't have a "TO CONFIG OK" advisory message. If all that STILL doesn't catch your attention, then there is something seriously wrong with you. Fatigue, incompetence, complacent, etc.

Our Before T/O checklist verifies CAS messages and TO Config ok message, so theoretically, we shouldn't ever be lining on the runway with one shut down.

 

[pilotyip]

Wouldn't it be saver to never start any engines? That way you could never taxi to a runway to try and take off with one shut down?

 

[Dornier 335]

If you can't remember to start your engines and can't figure it out prior to taking the runway then maybe you are in the wrong line of work.

It's called Airline Management!

At least in the CRJ2, with one engine still shut, you should have 3 msgs. 1 master warning for OIL PRESS, and 2 cautions for fuel pump and fuel low press. And you shouldn't have a "TO CONFIG OK" advisory message. If all that STILL doesn't catch your attention, then there is something seriously wrong with you. Fatigue, incompetence, complacent, etc.

Per checklist (and common sense really) you're supposed to check the engine parameters on the EICAS. Oil temp, before taking the runway is a big issue on the ERJ and/or Trans States and always a favorite oral question. Parameters not being in the green are boxed red. Those two pilots in question are management and senior pilot/check airman/former management so I don't buy fatigue. It'll be really interesting to get a copy of that CVR recording. Knowing both Trans States and STL FSDO that has been made unavailable*.

* yes, it's illegal to use the CVR, but that doesn't mean Trans States or the FAA doesn't listen to it when they want to.

 

[Papa Woody]

I was once engaged to a jet engine.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Having a procedure to remind you to start the engines is like having a procedure to remind you which way to move the yoke to flare.

If you can't remember to start your engines and can't figure it out prior to taking the runway then maybe you are in the wrong line of work.

I agree. Pretty soon these guys will be doing things to remind themselves to take a piss.

 

[pilotyip]

I was once engaged to a jet engine.

I bet that sucked

 

[Salukipilot4590]

I was once engaged to a jet engine.

Did you hear what she did to the guy after you down in El Paso?


Intense!

 

[Microclimates]

I am flying with more and more FO's that seem to have the attitude that checklists are for wimps. I can see that if I didn't call for them they would not do them or question me.

For instance "trim and takeoff speeds checked" without even looking at them! I have to constantly tell them to ACTUALLY check, not just verbalize from memory.

Most of these guys have a "I am superpilot" mentality.

But as soon as red lights start to flash, they look like deer in the headlights.

Thank God for super captains like yourself

 

[COOPERVANE]

Thank God for super captains like yourself

All I am asking is for you to do your job. The right way.

I am no superpilot. I just get blamed for not catching all of "our" mistakes. It would be nice if some FO's would help out a LITTLE and take some ownership of the flight.

Many can't be bothered.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

I was following an NWA DC-9 into Fargo a few months ago and witnessed the following:
Fargo Approach: "Northwest XXX, say speed."
NWA: "310 knots."
Fargo Approach: "You need to be at 250 knots or less below 10,000 sir."
NWA: "Ah... Roger..."

The good thing about this is we didn't have to slow down or take vectors for spacing :laugh:

Heard one like that smoothly handled by Approach ATC:

MIA APP: JET XYZ say speed

JET XYZ: 250Kts

MIA APP: Ok, slow to 200Kts, Your 250Kts is 50Kts faster than everybody else

 

[Flyer1015]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa Woody

I was once engaged to a jet engine.

I bet that sucked

But never swallowed.......

 

[LearCrj]

A good trick is to never set the flaps for takeoff until both engines are running. Not only is this a good way to remind yourself the engine isn't running, but also you'll get the "Takeoff... Flaps" warning and will remind you that you didn't set them for a reason.

Or you could just use the g*dd#mn checklist!