WSJ on SWA/AT Merger

[BILL LUMBERG]

Nicely played sir.:beer:

And that s the way I see it also.

Hey Sy-bill,

Put your pom poms away....go read his post....

Well Played!!!

 

[redflyer65]

401k matching is not a pension.

I'm not sure the pensions have worked out very well for the airline pilots over the past 10-12 years.

What are they getting? Around 40k per year from the PBGC?

 

[PCL_128]

I'm not sure the pensions have worked out very well for the airline pilots over the past 10-12 years.

What are they getting? Around 40k per year from the PBGC?

Like most SWA pilots, it seems, you don't understand the difference between a defined benefit pension and a defined contribution pension. Hopefully SWAPA figures it out and gets you guys a real retirement plan soon.

 

[redflyer65]

Like most SWA pilots, it seems, you don't understand the difference between a defined benefit pension and a defined contribution pension. Hopefully SWAPA figures it out and gets you guys a real retirement plan soon.

I understand the difference. Do you?

Are you talking about a pension or a defined contribution plan? I wouldn't call that a pension.

Anyway, you completely dodged the fact that most airlines pilots that had regular pensions (with the help of ALPA) got left holding the bag. And that bag had very little retirement money left in it thanks to horrible management types that underfunded them and then flushed them completely with bankruptcy.

All of those pilots would have done much better with a 401k or even the DCP (plan) your alluding to.

 

[dicko]

Back to the topic - 'The poorly handled merging of AirTran and Southwests systems'.

Last trip: Southwest had booked a group of 3 passengers in Business class on AirTran using their points. Unfortunately, 10 other AirTran customers had bought seats in Business class as well. One of the three Southwest passengers was moved back to a coach seat.

The FAs did a great job of trying to handle the irate Southwest customer. He was very, very pissed off.

 

[ATLplt]

Happens almost every flight handled by SWA ops agents: kids in exit rows, people sitting in random seats they didn't pay for, business class passengers finding their seats taken by non-revs. The ops agents usually just stand in the doorway while the FA's do an amazing job of controlling the damage in the cabin. They should be awarded extra pay every time they fly into BWI, MCO, DCA, or MDW.

I'd love to see a chart for on-time performance before and after each station changeover. The numbers would likely be jaw dropping. I haven't been on-time in a few months and frankly, my sense of urgency is starting to match those at the gate and on the ground.
No matter what we try and do up front, or the fine folks in the back, there's a general lack of enthusiasm to get any AirTran flights out at scheduled departure time. A lot of the blame lies with the lethargic ramp personnel. Beacon's on, door's closed, tug driver is on his union break. BWI has to be the worst.

 

[scoreboardII]

Like most SWA pilots, it seems, you don't understand the difference between a defined benefit pension and a defined contribution pension. Hopefully SWAPA figures it out and gets you guys a real retirement plan soon.

so it can be washed in bankruptcy court? I think not.

 

[scoreboardII]

Back to the topic - 'The poorly handled merging of AirTran and Southwests systems'.

Last trip: Southwest had booked a group of 3 passengers in Business class on AirTran using their points. Unfortunately, 10 other AirTran customers had bought seats in Business class as well. One of the three Southwest passengers was moved back to a coach seat.

The FAs did a great job of trying to handle the irate Southwest customer. He was very, very pissed off.

Wow, you mean one guy got improperly booked in an operation which moves 572,000 people a day? That's like 1 to the -7th percentage error...

Dude really, one guy? Please.

 

[scoreboardII]

Happens almost every flight handled by SWA ops agents: kids in exit rows, people sitting in random seats they didn't pay for, business class passengers finding their seats taken by non-revs. The ops agents usually just stand in the doorway while the FA's do an amazing job of controlling the damage in the cabin. They should be awarded extra pay every time they fly into BWI, MCO, DCA, or MDW.

I'd love to see a chart for on-time performance before and after each station changeover. The numbers would likely be jaw dropping. I haven't been on-time in a few months and frankly, my sense of urgency is starting to match those at the gate and on the ground.
No matter what we try and do up front, or the fine folks in the back, there's a general lack of enthusiasm to get any AirTran flights out at scheduled departure time. A lot of the blame lies with the lethargic ramp personnel. Beacon's on, door's closed, tug driver is on his union break. BWI has to be the worst.

Don't stress, go get a Latte, if management wanted us to care, they'd give us direction to care. It's their ball of goo, let them dig us out, they apparently have all the answers.

Stop stressing, it will take at least five to ten years to reach the level of the legacies.

Point to ponder, be careful about blaming the lethargic ramp. That ramp is managed by folks who force mandatory double's, undermans during peaks, pays minimum wage, and refuses to believe it snows in MDW or BWI and mans as if it's SNA. So place the blame at the point of occurance, management.

 

[Just thinking]

Lvdv is clueless and thinks he runs a great operation. No sense of urgency whatsoever and it translates throughout the day creating delays throughout the system. They are not understaffed if they have time to shoot hoops, play cornhole and lounge around checking their iphone. Operation agents who finally grace the aircrew with their presence and let them on board. Dump the pax on board and walk away leaving fas to clean their mess. Baggage mishandling has sky rocketed and your bag may fly free but not with you. Just another airline with lazy overunionized unskilled labor groups. Rampers don't make minimum wage. They get paid considerably more than that. The "Luv boat" has sailed. Not a jaded perpective.... just a real one.

 

[fam62c]

Like most SWA pilots, it seems, you don't understand the difference between a defined benefit pension and a defined contribution pension. Hopefully SWAPA figures it out and gets you guys a real retirement plan soon.

If you are promoting DB plans I'm guessing history and actuarial science were not your strongest subjects back in college

 

[HowardBorden]

EVERY merger is difficult with many problems along the way. Every merger in recent history has had a very similar article written. It will all get sorted out eventually, hopefully sooner rather than later. Some examples below.

Delta-Northwest Merger: Newlyweds Flying in Opposite Directions?


http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/200...rger-newlyweds-flying-in-opposite-directions/

But at Delta Air Lines, an operational slide seems to have started about the time that Delta?s acquisition of Northwest Airlines Corp. was announced. According to a new Department of Transportation report out Wednesday, Delta was the worst major carrier in on-time performance in November. (The only two airlines of any size worse than Delta were its two regional partners, Comair and Atlantic Southeast.) Delta and Atlantic Southeast also had the dubious distinction of being the only two airlines with a higher rate of customer complaints filed with the DOT in November than in November 2007. In complaints, Delta was worst among majors.


For United, Big Problems at Biggest Airline

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/b...ger-with-continental.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
But two years on, United still grapples with myriad problems in integrating the two airlines. The result has been hobbled operations, angry passengers and soured relations with employees.

Cultures actually clash in US Airways-America West merger

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories...ash-in-us-airways-america-west-merger-428293/
Any hope of a trouble-free US Airways-America West Airlines merger ended with a bloody, bare-fisted tussle between rival unions the morning of Feb. 8.

 

[maxblast72]

EVERY merger is difficult with many problems along the way. Every merger in recent history has had a very similar article written. It will all get sorted out eventually, hopefully sooner rather than later. Some examples below.

Delta-Northwest Merger: Newlyweds Flying in Opposite Directions?


http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/200...rger-newlyweds-flying-in-opposite-directions/

But at Delta Air Lines, an operational slide seems to have started about the time that Delta?s acquisition of Northwest Airlines Corp. was announced. According to a new Department of Transportation report out Wednesday, Delta was the worst major carrier in on-time performance in November. (The only two airlines of any size worse than Delta were its two regional partners, Comair and Atlantic Southeast.) Delta and Atlantic Southeast also had the dubious distinction of being the only two airlines with a higher rate of customer complaints filed with the DOT in November than in November 2007. In complaints, Delta was worst among majors.


For United, Big Problems at Biggest Airline

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/b...ger-with-continental.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
But two years on, United still grapples with myriad problems in integrating the two airlines. The result has been hobbled operations, angry passengers and soured relations with employees.

Cultures actually clash in US Airways-America West merger

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories...ash-in-us-airways-america-west-merger-428293/
Any hope of a trouble-free US Airways-America West Airlines merger ended with a bloody, bare-fisted tussle between rival unions the morning of Feb. 8.

No way Howard. The Delta-Northwest, United-Continental, and USAirways-America West mergers were all seamless and the customer never noticed. The "grass is always greener" crowd will talk the loudest. I guess we will see if hundreds leave for the greener pastures.

I have noticed the the SWA folks are getting better turning our aircraft. The BWI repo to gate issues seem to cause some of the EMO on time issues (which cascade throughout the day). Be interesting to see what happens when we go from summer schedule to fall schedule on Aug 11. I know the ATL B717 CA reserve grid is fat past Aug 11.

 

[SWA/FO]

BWI has to be the worst.

Ever since the "purchase" its been downhill.

 

[ATLplt]

Point to ponder, be careful about blaming the lethargic ramp. That ramp is managed by folks who force mandatory double's, undermans during peaks, pays minimum wage, and refuses to believe it snows in MDW or BWI and mans as if it's SNA. So place the blame at the point of occurance, management.

Minimum wage? I thought the rampies were making a killing. One told me on a walk around it was the highest paying job he's had and was making considerably more than a lot of his college grad friends. Certainly more than his AirTran counterparts (he made it a point to throw that in). According to you, I guess he was over-inflating his pay. I thought it was only the pilots that did that.

 

[Toecutter]

.......and now, time for something totally different. Just turn on CNN.

 

[burg]

SWA Gate agents top out in the $68k range..

That's better than my best rj w2,

EVER

 

[dicko]

Wow, you mean one guy got improperly booked in an operation which moves 572,000 people a day? That's like 1 to the -7th percentage error...

Dude really, one guy? Please.

It was an example Darth. Just an example ......

Every time we go into a Southwest station we arrive early and depart late. Prior to this 'merger of operations' AirTran had the best baggage numbers of any airline in the U.S. Consistently. For years. Now the numbers suck.

Better ? Or do you still have the meat sweats ?

 

[Sacha]

Have to agree with Dicko. I have been flying with quite a few AirTran guys over the last few months and we have been been subjected to a total goat-rope everytime we go through MDW,BWI,MCO plus a few smaller stations. Crap I have never seen before and these are 90% AM's. I have asked them if they had this kind of Sh?t at AirTran and they say absolutely not. I believe them. The turns through the Contract stations were flawless. I understand there is less traffic but they reminded me of the guys in ELP,SAT etc. 5 or 10 years ago. Yet our Dear Leader Gary K gets on SWAlife and tells everyone what a great job Ground Ops is doing..Pathetic really.

I can't imagine what the guys flying PMs are encountering since the weather has been mostly good on my AMs.

 

[PCL_128]

I understand the difference. Do you?

Are you talking about a pension or a defined contribution plan? I wouldn't call that a pension.

You clearly don't understand the difference, and what you "call" it is irrelevant, since words actually mean things.

Defined contribution pension plans include a company contribution without any employee contribution. This is what AirTran had, what Delta has, what United has, etc. A defined benefit plan is typically referred to as an "A Fund," while a defined contribution plan is generally referred to as a "B Fund," while both are actually pensions. At AirTran, the company contributed 10.5% even if the pilot contributed not one penny. At Delta, the company contributes 16%. And so on.

What you have is just a simple 401k plan with employer matching of only 9.3%. If you don't contribute, then you get bupkis. And even if you do contribute, the company is still only kicking in a maximum of 9.3%, which is utterly pathetic by current industry standards.