Wow, Delta's Earnings

[redflyer65]

Red,

You still can't debate your way out of a paper bag, and you go to Lubbock. You lose! Enjoy stagnation and Amarillo while you're at it!


Bye Bye---General Lee

That's your debate? Amarillo and Lubbock? Pretty lame Gen.

Sig,

It concerns me about the mx outsourcing.....I'm glad as pilots we haven't allowed it like some others have. I can tell you the mechanics are sorry they ever opened that door and will not sign off on anymore.

RF

 

[Dan Roman]

over 60% of current RJ pilots would be employed in other professions were it not for the "sell outs at DALPA" and the outsourcing accomplished in the 2000's.

Instead of bit**** maybe you should be glad you're not selling insurance to your brother in law and making about the same because you wouldn't have the 121 time you've got otherwise.

I'm surprised this point isn't brought up more. It really is the other side of the coin. I fully realize that too much domestic flying is done by RJ contractors that are not the career jobs that many want. Very sad, because years ago that flying was done by airlines that were considered great careers. Ozark, North Central, Allegheny, Piedmont, PSA, AirCal etc. were all thought of as great career jobs. Now I read somewhere that 50% of all domestic flying is done by the regionals. Which is a bit of a travesty given the fact that they bid against each other for the flying and are at the mercy of the cheapest operator.
Now that said, the reality is that it isn't realistic for the legacies to fly into a lot of the smaller cities, period. Their business model does require the feed from their regional partners and to a certain degree all that feed actually creates mainline jobs. I really don't know where the line is but it is blurred between how much flying does that feed create and how much domestic flying have the RJ operators replaced that could have been done by mainline.
The bottom line though is that the whole RJ industry created 1000's of entry level jobs in aviation that never existed before. It wasn't long ago that a pilot had to flight instruct for 1000+ hrs and than hope he could get right seat in a twin otter or B99 for a few years before having a chance at a major. It was a big gamble to try and get hired, many didn't and the airlines used to discriminate if you were over 32 years old. Now the pilots that started their career in the right seat of a small jet with 300 hrs and are working for regionals that in some case actually have a flow through agreement are calling the legacy pilots sell outs? How about taking some responsibility for the pay and working conditions at your airline and try to do something about it. The problem is your fellow operators that want to undercut each other for more flying, not mainline for not giving you a job.

 

[waveflyer]

You're kind of getting it Dan-

Didn't we learn something from Comair- any regional does much to try make it a "great" career - they'll be rolled back, the next Skywest built up, and every pilot there will be starting over.

And you get the "line" issue- I get that too about small markets- that's just rarely what these routes are all about now- now RJ's are used every bit as much to do supplemental flying to increase frequency on major markets as they are to do "feed" from smaller communities. So now when mgmt increases the size of the "RJ" and they do coast to coast with one stop in OHare or Denver or IAH or DFW - that's a problem for the career

As for 300 hour wonders- that rarely happened in the height of the last hiring wave- usually still needed 1000-100. It is most definitely not a good thing to replace great careers with accessible stepping stone jobs- esp when the stones means less career jobs to step to

 

[Dan Roman]

Red loves to forget that he and his airline are already outsourcing to cheaper pilots, the AT guys, on the SAME SIZE PLANE.....(737). How in the heck did they not get the same rate for the same plane? Oh, that's right, the deal somehow kicked EVERY AirTran 737 Captain out of their seats...... Nice poop sandwich that was, and great for merger morale.....

Oh and Red, you don't have ZERO outsourcing, you still send every SWA passenger going from MDW, OAK, and LAS to Mexico City and Guadalajara on your pals at Volaris. You must have forgotten about that. Maybe one too many intra Texas turns for you........

the SWA crew was willing to work for less than the going rate for YEARS, which is one thing. But then ********************t1ng on dal pilots for being "sellouts"?? It makes no sense. Watch what spirit does to SWA in the next 20 years. sad, but wait til spirit guys are mocking SWA guys for making concessions to swa management to save their jobs.

What goes around comes around.

It really is ironic that SWA has had a few years of their pilots finally at the top end of compensation after most of it's existence they were undercutting the rest of the industry as they grew their market share.
The legacy pay rates came under attack for a lot of reasons, but one of them was, in fact, the LCC's that had lower paid pilots and the carrier's that were not saddled with expensive retirement plans. I.E. SWA.
I'm not throwing stones at you SWA folks, I flew for PeopleExpress at one time. My point is we all live in glass houses and you can't start calling another pilot group "sellouts" without being guilty of hypocrisy.

Something to ponder, the SWA folks on here seem to love to boast about no RJ's or codesharing allowed. Does it ever concern you that your business model of domestic 737 flying may have matured and if you want to grow into new markets you may actually NEED codesharing and regional feed to do it? For instance, it doesn't look like you'll be coming to Hawaii anytime soon, but if you did, you would be competing with Alaska head to head with 737's. They have Horizon and DAL codesharing for feed. SWA would not and as Allegiant proved and everyone else who has tried before them has also failed, you can't break into the Hawaii market just with cheap fares.

 

[waveflyer]

over 60% of current RJ pilots would be employed in other professions were it not for the "sell outs at DALPA" and the outsourcing accomplished in the 2000's.

Instead of bit**** maybe you should be glad you're not selling insurance to your brother in law and making about the same because you wouldn't have the 121 time you've got otherwise.

Wow, you mean there's a military dbag onFI who aggressively doesn't have a clue about the civilian career??? Say it isn't so...

 

[Dan Roman]

You're kind of getting it Dan-

Didn't we learn something from Comair- any regional does much to try make it a "great" career - they'll be rolled back, the next Skywest built up, and every pilot there will be starting over.

And you get the "line" issue- I get that too about small markets- that's just rarely what these routes are all about now- now RJ's are used every bit as much to do supplemental flying to increase frequency on major markets as they are to do "feed" from smaller communities. So now when mgmt increases the size of the "RJ" and they do coast to coast with one stop in OHare or Denver or IAH or DFW - that's a problem for the career

As for 300 hour wonders- that rarely happened in the height of the last hiring wave- usually still needed 1000-100. It is most definitely not a good thing to replace great careers with accessible stepping stone jobs- esp when the stones means less career jobs to step to

I don't completely disagree with you, it is a slippery slope the RJ flying created, but I think it is more of a half full/half empty deal that is harder to quantify as completely wrong (it has created a lot of jobs) or completely right (I miss the old industry that had about 25 good career airlines). My point is that it is what it is, the whole industry is not what used to be. There are only 3 legacies left and a handful of other good career jobs out there. I think it is much more complex than a simple case of the legacies "selling out"

 

[waveflyer]

It really is ironic that SWA has had a few years of their pilots finally at the top end of compensation after most of it's existence they were undercutting the rest of the industry as they grew their market share.
The legacy pay rates came under attack for a lot of reasons, but one of them was, in fact, the LCC's that had lower paid pilots and the carrier's that were not saddled with expensive retirement plans. I.E. SWA.
I'm not throwing stones at you SWA folks, I flew for PeopleExpress at one time. My point is we all live in glass houses and you can't start calling another pilot group "sellouts" without being guilty of hypocrisy.

Something to ponder, the SWA folks on here seem to love to boast about no RJ's or codesharing allowed. Does it ever concern you that your business model of domestic 737 flying may have matured and if you want to grow into new markets you may actually NEED codesharing and regional feed to do it? For instance, it doesn't look like you'll be coming to Hawaii anytime soon, but if you did, you would be competing with Alaska head to head with 737's. They have Horizon and DAL codesharing for feed. SWA would not and as Allegiant proved and everyone else who has tried before them has also failed, you can't break into the Hawaii market just with cheap fares.

No- it doesn't concern me. Nor does it concern most of us. How much does Hawaiian code share?

And that first paragraph was tired 7 years ago when I was hired- now we're talking about for 30% of swa's existence we've been the highest paid 737 drivers judged off just pay rates. And those undercutting years... Made millionaires out of those pilots- none of us feel bad for those early pilots financial situation.

But AGAIN- that isn't the point. Dan, - can you please acknowledge that major airline pilots with good careers, collectively voting to outsource someone else's job and create whipsaw conditions that OTHERS have to work under is fundamentally different than an individual pilot choosing to work for a company for a certain pay- and different than a group collectively voting for their OWN pay and work rules??

Can you acknowledge that difference?

 

[waveflyer]

I don't completely disagree with you, it is a slippery slope the RJ flying created, but I think it is more of a half full/half empty deal that is harder to quantify as completely wrong (it has created a lot of jobs) or completely right (I miss the old industry that had about 25 good career airlines). My point is that it is what it is, the whole industry is not what used to be. There are only 3 legacies left and a handful of other good career jobs out there. I think it is much more complex than a simple case of the legacies "selling out"

I acknowledge the complexity for sure- but don't feel it a valid excuse

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Once again....

Wavehole needs to chime in.

This board is a cesspool of idiots.

 

[waveflyer]

Thought you had me on ignore bill?

 

[Dan Roman]

No- it doesn't concern me. Nor does it concern most of us. How much does Hawaiian code share?

Actually, Hawaiian codeshares extensively. Korean, ANA, Virgin Australia, Atlantic and America, JetBlue AA and more. We would be a lot smaller airline if we didn't codeshare.
As for the rest, I am simply saying it is very complex to be able to generalize that they are all sellouts...and every pilot group has some blood on their hands that has contributed to the situation.

 

[waveflyer]

Codesharing is different to me than outsourcing-

These are contracts to do flying as express carriers with mainline paint schemes and logo on the tail. Not just sell tickets on another airline to expand the networks-

At its base- it's a seniority scam- split the career up and dilute seniority

 

[General Lee]

Codesharing is different to me than outsourcing-

These are contracts to do flying as express carriers with mainline paint schemes and logo on the tail. Not just sell tickets on another airline to expand the networks-

At its base- it's a seniority scam- split the career up and dilute seniority

Not every plane can fit on every route, Wave. Southwest didn't want 717s, so they are paying DL to get rid of them. As a result, SWA is dropping 17 cities that AT used to fly to. Obviously, SWA 737s can't make money on all routes.

Hawaiian will be outsourcing to several islands using Empire Airlines, utilizing ATR-42s. Even though they used to fly DC9s to Lanai and Molokai, and used to fly Dash-7s into those two and Kapalua, they will now use ATRs flown by Empire. Hawaiian Airlines made the decision to return to those cities, but at a certain price. Should Hawaiian avoid those 3 airports if they can't afford putting mainline planes (717s) into Lanai, Molokai, and Kapalua (couldn't handle a 717 anyway)??? SWA doesn't seem to care about those 17 ex AT cities, but the 3 in Hawaii might make a difference for Hawaiian.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

General, you are right-
It's absolutely the same thing- Hawaiian codesharing with an atr op serving molokai is exactly the same as your RJ's connecting CVG-JFK/LGA/EWR

GL, there are 10 daily delta flights from Cincinnatti-( a delta hub and metropolitan population of 2.1Million people) to New York's 3 airports-( a metro area consisting of an EAS worthy 19million)

All 10 are RJs of various sizes.

Not one mainline airport between those two major markets

Want me to continue? I dare you to find 1 CR9 connecting a small market- they don't do that- they supplement mainline flying- that's all they do- and all they're going to do- its too big for anything else

There's not a remote connection to Hawaiian hooking up with a small turboprop operator- and honestly- I wouldn't be against SWA doing it- they just haven't expressed a desire to.

Your schtick is BS man- just excuses-

I don't care if delta wants to fly that size aircraft- Theyre the business end- I'm just saying jets of that size ought to be flown by mainline pilots- that ought not be controversial among pilots. But with DALPA....anything less than 2 aisles isn't worthy, right Gen?

 

[jonjuan]

Someone's pissed that the legacies are now able to compete with Southwest from a cost and fare standpoint. She wouldn't be having this argument if the legacies weren't becoming stronger every passing month and southwest wasn't struggling with cost increases that are becoming harder to control. Many of the pilots currently at regionals will soon get hired by a legacy and upgrade well before wavey has a chance to at sw. And the thought of that is throwing her estrogen levels out of whack.

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah- that's it- I didn't know I wouldn't have the chance to interview at a legacy if I wanted to do that-
I love flying for southwest- and am unvoncerned with upgrade believe me- but if you think rj's are the reason legacies are more profitable now than they were- you don't know the RJ

I am as sincere as I can get- rj's outsourced are flat out bad for ALL of our careers- it's that simple

 

[General Lee]

Wave,

Why don't you guys fly to CVG? Why haven't you taken some of your LGA slots to MDW from LGA and swapped them to CVG? Maybe there is a reason.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Freebrd]

Want me to continue? I dare you to find 1 CR9 connecting a small market- they don't do that- they supplement mainline flying- that's all they do- and all they're going to do- its too big for anything ?

ATLMGM daily service one off the top of my head. Goes to MGM in the evening and flys back to ATL the following morning.

 

[redflyer65]

Wave,

Why don't you guys fly to CVG? Why haven't you taken some of your LGA slots to MDW from LGA and swapped them to CVG? Maybe there is a reason.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You're right General!

Southwest should immediately purchase CRJ-900's (flown at C-plan rates) and put them on LGA-CVG. What was Gary thinking?

Thanks Buddy!


Oh wait, we don't have a CBA that allows that. We'll have to work on it.

 

[maxblast72]

Southwest didn't want 717s, so they are paying DL to get rid of them.

Delta is paying to early out of some 50 seat lift and "upgauge" to larger aircraft (including the B717). Southwest is paying to early out some 120 seat lift and "upgauge" to larger B737-700s and -800s. Southwest and Delta aren't the only two airlines "upgauging" right now due to higher fuel prices. What is your point General?