With the exception of a few nuggets of accurate information, this entire thread is embarrassing. Time and time again I watch with morbid curiousity the way us pilots get at each others throats over factors that are almost always beyond our control. GLAH Mgt. need only read part of this thread to realize they've got us right where they want us.
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Bellerophon
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Not sure what this is but NAA has never had SA flying for AMC, maybe you are thinking about Arrow, which MP owns.
I was talking about NAA scheduled service to Guyana. Prior to World Holdings purchase of NAA, your airline was flying scheduled charters out of the Oakland base to Hawaii and New York to Guyana. AMC flying was a very small part of your flying. Ask the NAA pilots employed there prior to 2005.
When NAA was purchased the World Airways union told the NAA union that World holdings intended on switching NAA from their commercial charter business to AMC business model. The NAA union did not believe that would happen. The NAA pilots did not want to merge with World and lose out on the Oakland base flying to more senior World pilots. Also the NAA pilots did not like our work rules. I don't blame them on that one. Also in my opinion your IBT local did not want to lose your dues to our local (Assuming because we had more pilots NAA would merge to the World local). So the IBT was not going to spend money fighting another IBT group into a merger.
You should understand that in 2005-2007 World Airways pilots witnessed a reduction in AMC flying while NAA saw a huge increase. In the first year alone (2005) NAA went from somewhere around $8.0 million in AMC revenue to around $75 million in revenue. At the same time World Airways' AMC revenue dropped about $50 million. So in 2005-2007 World Airways upgrades and hiring stagnated while NAA rocketed. I don't know if you know this but prior to the purchase of NAA, World Airways had trained some check pilots on the B767. Of course that program and its potential seats went away with the NAA purchase. Not the fault of NAA pilots, but it was cheaper to purchase NAA than ramp up our own B767 operation. Your posts sound like a post from a World pilot in 2006.
I think what you are seeing today (World hiring and NAA furloughs) is the result of NAA union short sighted decision not to merge lists with World Airways pilots in 2005. It was the NAA pilots union who said no. Why do I make that strong statement? Because the NAA union stated that any merger would require a 15 year fence and would not move from that position. That is not a merger of lists. Even if the World pilots accepted NAA offer, you would still be furloughing today.
I think any leverage the NAA pilots had with the IBT went out with the vote to change to ALPA. I don't know what the World Airways IBT (different local) can do to help the NAA pilots without a merger. We can make noise to management to hire furloughed NAA pilots.
As far as World higher overhead, thats World Holdings management BS. They can charge overhead to either airlines at a rate they choose. It is also cheaper to keep the MD-11 flying AMC verses starting a B777 program at NAA. So guess what since we are one company (revenue wise), Global will go for the cheaper option untill AMC makes them change.
I think you view NAA and World Airways as separate companies. Every year that becomes less and less true. The revenue comes from Global. NAA and World have not had their own sales department for years now.
Bel
I was talking about NAA scheduled service to Guyana. Prior to World Holdings purchase of NAA, your airline was flying scheduled charters out of the Oakland base to Hawaii and New York to Guyana. AMC flying was a very small part of your flying. Ask the NAA pilots employed there prior to 2005.
When NAA was purchased the World Airways union told the NAA union that World holdings intended on switching NAA from their commercial charter business to AMC business model. The NAA union did not believe that would happen. The NAA pilots did not want to merge with World and lose out on the Oakland base flying to more senior World pilots. Also the NAA pilots did not like our work rules. I don't blame them on that one. Also in my opinion your IBT local did not want to lose your dues to our local (Assuming because we had more pilots NAA would merge to the World local). So the IBT was not going to spend money fighting another IBT group into a merger.
You should understand that in 2005-2007 World Airways pilots witnessed a reduction in AMC flying while NAA saw a huge increase. In the first year alone (2005) NAA went from somewhere around $8.0 million in AMC revenue to around $75 million in revenue. At the same time World Airways' AMC revenue dropped about $50 million. So in 2005-2007 World Airways upgrades and hiring stagnated while NAA rocketed. I don't know if you know this but prior to the purchase of NAA, World Airways had trained some check pilots on the B767. Of course that program and its potential seats went away with the NAA purchase. Not the fault of NAA pilots, but it was cheaper to purchase NAA than ramp up our own B767 operation. Your posts sound like a post from a World pilot in 2006.
I think what you are seeing today (World hiring and NAA furloughs) is the result of NAA union short sighted decision not to merge lists with World Airways pilots in 2005. It was the NAA pilots union who said no. Why do I make that strong statement? Because the NAA union stated that any merger would require a 15 year fence and would not move from that position. That is not a merger of lists. Even if the World pilots accepted NAA offer, you would still be furloughing today.
I think any leverage the NAA pilots had with the IBT went out with the vote to change to ALPA. I don't know what the World Airways IBT (different local) can do to help the NAA pilots without a merger. We can make noise to management to hire furloughed NAA pilots.
As far as World higher overhead, thats World Holdings management BS. They can charge overhead to either airlines at a rate they choose. It is also cheaper to keep the MD-11 flying AMC verses starting a B777 program at NAA. So guess what since we are one company (revenue wise), Global will go for the cheaper option untill AMC makes them change.
I think you view NAA and World Airways as separate companies. Every year that becomes less and less true. The revenue comes from Global. NAA and World have not had their own sales department for years now.
Bel
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redneck jihad
Well-known member
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- 96
Thank you, couldn't agree more.
I wish nothing but the best for all involved in our industry. However, I have little patience with some of the "commuter gods" (you know who you are) who make it to the non-scheds and get their wide body type and become experts in all areas of aviation, airline ops, AMC Teaming arrangements, IBT, ALPA, etc.,etc. When you're sitting in your hotel room, alone, drunk, and self righteously indignant, please, feel free to STFU anytime.
MD11Drvr
Still Learning
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2005
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- 398
Redneck Jihad and NAAPilot,
You're both right and I should have resisted the urge to respond to the initial "Im sick" statement. I sincerely wish both pilot groups all the best as we need to be united against an entity other than each other. I concede that all the answers are not known by either pilot group and never will be. If there is anything that can be done to ensure the furloughed can find a home at the other carrier then by all means it should be done. Again my assertion all along was those decisions and many like them are made well above the line pilots head. If it were left to the pilots I would like to think (maybe Naive) that we would take care of each other.
Thank you both for the wisdom and I will return to lurking.......
You're both right and I should have resisted the urge to respond to the initial "Im sick" statement. I sincerely wish both pilot groups all the best as we need to be united against an entity other than each other. I concede that all the answers are not known by either pilot group and never will be. If there is anything that can be done to ensure the furloughed can find a home at the other carrier then by all means it should be done. Again my assertion all along was those decisions and many like them are made well above the line pilots head. If it were left to the pilots I would like to think (maybe Naive) that we would take care of each other.
Thank you both for the wisdom and I will return to lurking.......
JJET44
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- May 25, 2006
- Posts
- 689
Feel free to tell if you really know!?!?!?
GUMP_check
Member
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- Aug 12, 2005
- Posts
- 14
BornAgainPagan
No Gods. No Masters.
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- Jan 2, 2004
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propilot
Go Sioux!
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 357
WOW! Talk about a hijacked thread... Schedule varies. There are split lines and there are lines up to 18 days out. Mins 3000TT with 1000 TPIC. Don't know the answer to the last question.
What a Tool.
GUMP_check
Member
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bigboeings
Well-known member
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- Nov 13, 2002
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- 202
MD11dvr I appreciate your calm posts and insight. I could be wrong, but I do believe all furloughees have been given the call back, and only 1 deferred it and is at Omni. GLAH is the pulling the strings, and that is a fact, they do whatever is cheaper for the moment. I personally asked about merging at the town hall meeting and they denied it would happen, so.... Anyways it looks like we will be sharing TPA for now.
Oh how I tried to resist this thread. First, this situation that you people find yourself in sucks. No two ways about it. When one corporate entity controls the flying but has multiple airlines and pilot groups to operate it there is NEVER a good outcome for the people sitting in the pointy end of the airplanes. I honestly hope you can work it out and save some jobs.
Having said that. KARMA IS A BEOTCH! Before the shut down ATA pilots and World pilots had started to talk about a single seniority list. Where were the NAA pilots you ask? Who knows. We couldn't even get them to return phone calls. It is believed that as the most junior pilot group they were trying to avoid a single list and the loss of seniority that might come with it. Flash forward 4 years and now this guy wants the benefits of a single list to keep him off the street. Where was he in 2007-2008? We wouldn't be having this rather childish thread creep if somebody would have stepped up then. Before you go on about me being biter and so on, don't I and most of my peers have moved on. I am just making an observation about how your perspective changes with which side of the stich you are holding.
JET
Having said that. KARMA IS A BEOTCH! Before the shut down ATA pilots and World pilots had started to talk about a single seniority list. Where were the NAA pilots you ask? Who knows. We couldn't even get them to return phone calls. It is believed that as the most junior pilot group they were trying to avoid a single list and the loss of seniority that might come with it. Flash forward 4 years and now this guy wants the benefits of a single list to keep him off the street. Where was he in 2007-2008? We wouldn't be having this rather childish thread creep if somebody would have stepped up then. Before you go on about me being biter and so on, don't I and most of my peers have moved on. I am just making an observation about how your perspective changes with which side of the stich you are holding.
JET
UM#1
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- Dec 1, 2001
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- 268
coastinout
coastinout
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- Nov 21, 2005
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- 39
The last I knew (that was about 3 days ago), NAA has approx 3 Pilots on furlough. 2 we don't want back, they went off to fly contract gigs and haven't been heard from since. And one is over at Omni (?) and staying there for now. Thats it.
We just got another 767, to replace one that just left. And hopefully 2 more 767's are coming.
I totally realize that it is GAH that is the problem, hopefully we can mitigate the whipsaw.
Coastinout
We just got another 767, to replace one that just left. And hopefully 2 more 767's are coming.
I totally realize that it is GAH that is the problem, hopefully we can mitigate the whipsaw.
Coastinout
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