With RTS out, what's in store for us?

[G200_PILOT]

OH and it also takes Balls and sign your name at the bottom of the post that you started or just write what you are saying on the NJASAP Boards
Pin Head!!

Really? Who are you again?

 

[glasspilot]

I'd cut G200 a little slack. I know where he is coming from. Times are very difficult out there for everyone. Some more that others, obviously.

He made nice in his last post and looks like he has realized what a touchy subject furloughs are. Nothing he said was all that factually wrong, it just wasn't very sensitive to the feelings of some guys who are facing VERY uncertain times. I've made that same mistake on public forums and the backlash for voicing an unpopular view, no matter how technically "correct" it may be, can be fierce.

There's enough problems in the world without adding this silliness to the pile, I say let G200 off the hook and try to stand as one to face the upcoming challenges.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Thanks Glass.

Guys, I'm not out to piss on the new guys nor am I here trying to agitate Pop. If you do your homework and find my posts and threads on the private message boards, you'll find that yes, I'm very out-spoken but that I also have a lot of respect for the junior guys. It wasn't until a particular junior NJA pilot started throwing big stones at those that couldn't sacrifice their firstborns to the cause, that I stepped away from it. I hate the current situation just as much as the most junior guy on our list. I have spent 10 years bragging to others about working for not only the best company in aviation, but also the strongest. To me, down sizing or furloughs is a sign of weakness. Someone, somewhere did something wrong to create that situation from having to happen. That's where I started my posts a few days ago. As the ball was starting to drop from their hands, we continued to hire pilots and eventually were left with what we have today. I'm as sorry as one could be to see that happen. I may have said it wrong (nothing new there) but all I was saying was that those that MAY have been hired here in a time where no hiring should have happened, AT LEAST have a guaranteed spot on our seniority list IF they're asked to leave.

 

[fischman]

March '08 Bear Steans goes down, still hiring. Summer '08 the stock market is freaking out, the talking heads are talking serious doom and gloom, still hiring. Also sitting on good jets with good crew doing nothing at LAX. I'm busier this summer.

Sept 15 Lehman goes out, Sept 29 stock market goes down 778. New hire class going on.

Next week I'm in Co-recurrent listen to how everything is OK. I'm wondering what is in the air in CMH. BTW, the day I got this mangement brief the market dropped another 300 odd points.

Not coming after you Fischman, but someone was asleep at the switch.

In hindsight it is easy to say that. Last year I didn't hear 1, NOT 1, single rumble about us hiring too many pilots from ANYONE. What the deal was last year was, "My buddy didn't get hired even tough I wrote him a LOR. He was the best out there. You don't have a clue what you are doing."

The bottom line is that NO ONE can say that someone dropped the ball or that someone should have stopped hiring, because NO ONE saw or was even CLOSE to seeing the DOW getting down to 7000. To say otherwise is horse $h!t. If you did in fact know, why weren't you and everyine else screaming at the tops of your lungs???

Because you didn't know how bad '09 was going to be. Again, NO ONE did.

 

[fischman]

There is absolutely no "brotherhood" in that post. All I get out of that is I want what's best for "ME, ME, ME!" If you were in the bottom 500 or so here you wouldn't be making selfish posts like that, I guarantee it.

Try finding employment in today's economy if you lose your job. It aint gonna happen. This is the worst economic situation we have seen in our lifetime. God forbid anyone VOLUNTARILY sacrifice some of their income to help out a junior guy from possibly losing their home, credit, marriage, etc.

You're one selfish S.O.B. I can't believe you were actually hired at NJA. Oh wait....when were you hired? You want to play that way? We can play that way. Senior vs. junior style, since that's what you just started with your post! And it is FI afterall......

Standing by for incoming since you always try to get the last word in. 3...2...1.......

P.S. To those who participated in the VM's, my family and I sincerely thank you.

Actually, G200 is one of the most generous people you will ever meet.

 

[fischman]

Are you really that naive? The economy and in turn the industry were visibly frothy in late 2007 and early 2008. I said aircraft orders were being deferred and sales were dropping like a rock at this time, and yet, the hiring train went on with everyone claiming no end in sight.

Can I borrow your crystal ball for a while? Please jonjuan. Tell us all what is going to happen in '10. :nuts:

Your flame baiting grows tiresome, and I hold absolutely no credit to anything you post or will post in the future. THAT is what my crystal ball tells me.

 

[RNObased]

To say otherwise is horse $h!t. If you did in fact know, why weren't you and everyine else screaming at the tops of your lungs???

Because you didn't know how bad '09 was going to be. Again, NO ONE did.

Nope, you never saw me complaining about my buddy not getting hired. I thought we were over hiring in '07.

Also I did ask one of our past senor mangers why we were hiring. This is after two tours in a row sitting with a good jet and a crew, last spring/summer. He gave me some mangement double speak and shoo'ed me away.

I'm not saying I knew how bad '09 was going to be, I'm saying '08 was sucking bad and no one realized it or would own up to it. I'm questioning the managers. Also don't get defensive you weren't the one making those decisions.

 

[RNObased]

Actually, G200 is one of the most generous people you will ever meet.

You are right about that, he doesn't even get mad when pilots hit on his wife. Kidding G200.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Guys, it's all good. I don't think there's a single person here that will argue the fact that these are some difficult and sensitive times. I'm sorry for the way I worded things. I hope some sort of miracle happens and we all skate through this without a scratch. If that miracle doesn't happen, those that know me, know that they can come to me ANYTIME if they need ANYTHING.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Your flame baiting grows tiresome,

You have failed me for the last time Admiral....

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

In hindsight it is easy to say that. Last year I didn't hear 1, NOT 1, single rumble about us hiring too many pilots from ANYONE. What the deal was last year was, "My buddy didn't get hired even tough I wrote him a LOR. He was the best out there. You don't have a clue what you are doing."

The bottom line is that NO ONE can say that someone dropped the ball or that someone should have stopped hiring, because NO ONE saw or was even CLOSE to seeing the DOW getting down to 7000. To say otherwise is horse $h!t. If you did in fact know, why weren't you and everyine else screaming at the tops of your lungs???

Because you didn't know how bad '09 was going to be. Again, NO ONE did.

From someone who was actually there during the hiring process, as you and I both were Fisch, you are absolutely correct. All I heard over and over again was things like ,"We are going to hire 450 a year until we reach 5000 pilots" and "We have 80 Hawker 4000s and hundreds of other aircraft coming and we won't be able to get you guys through training fast enough!". The ONLY uncertainty on everybody's minds during my April indoc class was whether or not OIL would go to 200 dollars a barrel and what effect that might have. I think at the time it was around 130/barrel? That was the ONLY negative aspect of the current economy that was being discussed by Management and Pilots alike.

Don't forget the Hangar meeting/video in May? I think, where RTS kept saying over and over again how we were going to "kill" the competition. He had absolute confidence and was a completely different man back then than he has been over the last 5 months.

These were VERY smart people folks, and if they didn't see it coming, then I'm pretty sure none of you self professed Nostradamuses saw it coming either.

NOBODY had a clue this was coming. To say otherwise is absolute bull$hit!!!!

 

[glasspilot]

I saw it coming.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

I saw it coming.

:laugh:

 

[G200_PILOT]

At this point, does it even matter? No matter what the road was paved with, we're here and we now have to do something. Who cares whether someone saw it coming? You of all people should know better than to use the 4000 as an excuse for SOME of the hiring. Hell, we've been hiring for that POS since 1987. :uzi:

 

[Fozzy]

I saw it coming.

absolute bull$hit. :laugh:

 

[Helmsalee]

Hey, furlough sucks! Always has and always will. But it has been a part of aviation for a long time and I predict it will be here long after I'm gone. Senior guys, keep in mind that when you were junior the thought of losing your job was a scary idea. Junior guys, think about years from now when, hopefully, you will be senior. Likely your attitudes will change. Maybe this does not apply to everyone, but it is true in most cases. I've been flying for a living for almost 40 years and have been junior, senior and now I'm junior again. Just keep in mind that attitudes change with time and circumstances. The one thing we can all do is respect each other and understand that everyone does not see the situation from the same point of view. It is not needed for senior or junior to get on this board and point fingers or attack others.
Nuff said,
Helm

 

[Helmsalee]

Hey, furlough sucks! Always has and always will. But it has been a part of aviation for a long time and I predict it will be here long after I'm gone. Senior guys, keep in mind that when you were junior the thought of losing your job was a scary idea. Junior guys, think about years from now when, hopefully, you will be senior. Likely your attitudes will change. Maybe this does not apply to everyone, but it is true in most cases. I've been flying for a living for almost 40 years and have been junior, senior and now I'm junior again. Just keep in mind that attitudes change with time and circumstances. The one thing we can all do is respect each other and understand that everyone does not see the situation from the same point of view. It is not needed for senior or junior to get on this board and point fingers or attack others.
Nuff said,
Helm

 

[AvroJockey]

Avro, you can be pissed all you want. I'm sorry if you're in the group I'm talking about but the fact is that we're overstaffed and whatever has to happen in order to make sure the company stops bleeding money has to happen. It's that simple. Yes, my comments were in hind sight. Nobody knew just how bad things would get but if you look back, you'll see that we were still hiring during the start of the down turn. Someone at that point should hav stopped that from happening. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you but I'm done dancing around the reality if the way things are. Sugarcoating hasn't helped any of us.

I am fully aware of the current economic situation and the consequences of not right-sizing the company if need be. I'm OK with any decision to furlough in the short term if it ensures long term stability. However, your comments about the junior guy, and their joining the company in the last year isn't called for.

You know, anger is generally a secondary emotion...maybe you're feeling guilty about not contributing more in the voluntary measures. JK , I think it's equally insulting that some junior guy forces their will on others in the seniority list.

 

[G200_PILOT]

I am fully aware of the current economic situation and the consequences of not right-sizing the company if need be. I'm OK with any decision to furlough in the short term if it ensures long term stability. However, your comments about the junior guy, and their joining the company in the last year isn't called for.

You know, anger is generally a secondary emotion...maybe you're feeling guilty about not contributing more in the voluntary measures. JK , I think it's equally insulting that some junior guy forces their will on others in the seniority list.

The way I said it wasn't called for. You're right. I'm a straight shooter and sometimes that stings a bit. All we can do is hope for the best. If it does come down to guys getting furloughed, we have a great group of pilots here that I'm sure will come together and help out in any way they can. We'll all just have to keep our fingers crossed.

 

[netjetwife]

Good post, Helm! These are tough times and things could get worse before the economy gets better. Mutual respect and empathy for another's situation are important traits that will help the NJ folks pull together. Good luck to you and the other junior pilots/families. NJW