With RTS out, what's in store for us?

[glasspilot]

I think what he meant was in HIND SIGHT that nobody should, errr, ...ummm, looking back...

ahh, screw it...I have no idea. I give up, let 'em have it...

 

[pilot772]

OK guys, here's the deal. I wasn't trying to attack the junior guys with my earlier post nor was I trying to come across as high and mighty. The facts are what they are and they aren't favorable for the junior guys. I'm sorry that it's gone down like that but I didn't create the problem nor am I in a position to fix it. I take great pride in this company and intend to do everything in my power to make sure that it's still here in 20-30 years when I retire. That includes standing behind some hard-to-make decisions that may include furloughs if that's what it comes down to. The reason I'm being so blunt is because I've sat around for months now listening to numerous junior pilots talk about how WE should all be willing to take a hit in order to make sure that nobody loses their job. While others don't have the balls to say it, I'll be happy to go on record as to say F*$@ THAT!

I didn't cause the stock market to crash nor did I make the call as to who got hired when. I'm sure as hell not going to take a hit for someone elses' mistakes. Not a popular public statement but I assure you that there are PLENTY of other "senior" pilots that are sick and tired of listening to this BS.

G200 pilot you are one sorry SOB. Rp170 hit the nail on the head your statements are some of the most divisive and malicious I have yet to see. My understanding is the reason SU and subsequently IBT, and Njasap has been so successful is because the brotherhood and all the pilots sticking together. Now if 500-700 of us Junior pilots are shown the door your statement of F%$^ that regarding the Voluntary measures will be remembered. So when us junior guys return and contract time rolls around: pay raise for 15 year guy, nope, retirement healthcare, nope, Higher pay for larger airplane not voting for that either. Your attitude toward the junior folks no matter what circumstance we were hired is disgusting. Its to bad you don't come over and discuss this stuff on the union board to keep things in house. Most of us know who you are anyway but it would be nice to discuss these issues out in the open not behind screen names.

thanks

 

[pilot error]

On the contrary, I was told that I was hired because NJA wanted to hire the best employees in the market, and they finally had the contract to attract the cream of the crop instead of the industry's stepchildren. (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of managements speech)

so you are saying everyone hired before the contract were the stepchildren of aviation?

 

[RNObased]

Are you really that naive? The economy and in turn the industry were visibly frothy in late 2007 and early 2008. I said aircraft orders were being deferred and sales were dropping like a rock at this time, and yet, the hiring train went on with everyone claiming no end in sight.

Someone was naive, don't think it was fisherman.

 

[harley30344]

HMMM Is greed and adversity causing a fracture in the brotherhood? I've seen it before---everything is cool until it starts happening to me then it is every man for himself.

 

[CRJFlyer]

G200 obviously is full of SH^T... oh wait he has to be he's in the 200. They only let senior guys fly that thing from the left seat. We're not worthy (in my best wayne and garth voices)

I have seen good unity and I have seen the opposite.. But I don't think for one second that EVERYONE doesn't do things for they're own benefit in some way or another. While I'm glad the VM's worked I think it has been more of a stigma because now the senior folks feel entitled to us bowing down to their graciousness. (I'm only refering to the few vocal minority that keep bringing up how they saved us) I feel the VM's worked becasue we all worked together to help the company with a decision.

G200 has to be that guy who keeps saying he's gonna opt out.. Because those remaining 2 holidays are soooooooooooo worth it...I'm taking bets that G200 would also love to opt out and then pick up extended days at 1.5x pay.. While guys were out on furlough because screw 'em they shouldn't have been here anyways.

G200, the problem here is that your not dealing ith a bunch of first timers. Weve all seen your type before at other airlines..And another problem is we're not talking about replacing a $30k/yr job at some crappy regional. We're talking about a career job that will ruin a whole lot of us if we get the axe. We're talking many, many lives, families ruined. And in case you haven't noticed, which you probably haven't, there's absolutely no where else to go. So yes it is VERY understandable that the junior folks would be MORE willing to do whatever it takes to stay employed. If there were somewhere else to go to ride out a furlough things may be different..


The next few tours are just gonna be peachy. Glad I'm off for another 7 days because this reduced schedule is sweet!! Only 13 work days in Aug. Oh and so are the extra days off I took by staying opted in...

 

[CRJFlyer]

HMMM Is greed and adversity causing a fracture in the brotherhood? I've seen it before---everything is cool until it starts happening to me then it is every man for himself.

I've got to throw this out... No matter what anybody says..It's always been every man for himself in the pilot world.... If you go to a machinist union, the UAW or EWU it probably is more unified and more like a brotherhood. We worry about flying bigger planes for a few more bucks. They also don't spend their time telling flying stories trying to one up the last guy who was telling his hero story to one-up the last guy...

 

[jppt2000]

HMMM Is greed and adversity causing a fracture in the brotherhood? I've seen it before---everything is cool until it starts happening to me then it is every man for himself.

LOL, without seniority protection, you might want to be part of the "brotherhood" sooner than later.

 

[G200_PILOT]

We can go back and fourth all day long if you wish. It's somewhat entertaining. I never said that we should screw the junior guy. What I said was quite clear.

1) The person who decided to continue to hire through 2008 made a mistake. While nobody foreshadowed just how bad things were going to get, things were slowing down way before September.

2) While the preventative measures help, we're still bleeding money faster than we ever have. We can continue to do so for another 12 months and we can ALL be on the unemployment line or we can do what we should have done 6 months ago and start the healing process.

3) While it's quite clear that anytime the talk of furlough starts, it will always be a junior vs. senior discussion. Many senior folks here have shown their dedication to their brothers and sisters. Whether a guy has opted in or made the ultimate sacrifice by leaving completely, it wasn't only a matter of the junior guys helping themselves. From here on out, however, if our new CEO says it's either concessions or a furlough, I don't think the senior folks will be willing to give up pay. The majority anyways. It's not an easy thing to talk about so of course that majority will remain quiet. That's fine. I just don't see the need to. I'm not rubbing ANYONE'S nose in ANYTHING.

That's all I'm going to say about it. Junior guy against senior guy? Yeah, wait till the start of 2010 and we'll see just how many nobel senior guys we have here.

All the best...

 

[popgoesbubble]

2 Questions is G200 Pilot MP? Second why are you guys having this conversation on FI why not have it on our Own Union Board. If its the Guy I'm thinking about I heard he only Opted IN didn't reduced nothing so much for doing everything in his power. Seriously guys grow a set of Balls and have this discussion on our own Board and seriously G200 YOUR a FAG that deserves to have his ass beat for Posting this on here. What isn't having our Own Message Board good enough? Why would you like to share our Business with a bunch of strangers or Competitors that would rather see NJA go away. It's a good thing we don't have Airline crew rooms you Scum Bag Because I would Invite you out doors and ask you to take off your bars and settle this the Old fashion way.

Now Go find your Balls and post this on our own Boards instead of hiding out behind a screen name. Guys you can always tell a Coward on Here when they Hide the A/C Flown, Ratings and Curr Positions with stupid comments like G200 pilot does. He's afraid someone will put the puzzle together and find out who he is.

 

[gunfyter]

Everyone knows who he is.... ain't MP.

Its a free country but i agree would prefer this discussed on our board. Not here

 

[G200_PILOT]

Now that's some funny ******************** right there. Don't care who you are. Who I am isn't that hard to figure out Einstein. You're not really the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree are you? Are you the guy that wears a hockey helmet to bed? I think so.

It takes balls to openly say what many hide behind. Don't like it? Put me on your ignore list. Reality is such and you're going to have to live with it.

BTW, the quickest way to get yourself fired is to start running around talking about what you would do if we ran into each other. Remember, it wouldn't be hard to figure out who you were either. Move on and figure out another way to express yourself besides violence. Not a smart path you're walking down.

 

[RTRHD]

Hey G was that you in MRY that tried to pawn off your trip to us. If it was I want a piece of you too. LOL:laugh:

 

[AvroJockey]

so you are saying everyone hired before the contract were the stepchildren of aviation?

If you read my post fully, I said I was paraphrasing management's statements...they're not mine. I also didn't say EVERYONE. These sediments were repeated to me twice, during indoc, at least once during the interview, and once during IOE.

I believe I'm a good pilot with exceptional service skills, nothing more, so don't read into my post. I was trying to show G200_Pilot that the Class of 2008 is an asset...not a mistaken quota.

 

[cjdriver]

G200 obviously is full of SH^T... oh wait he has to be he's in the 200. They only let senior guys fly that thing from the left seat. We're not worthy (in my best wayne and garth voices)

Is this a result of, or cause of the multiple G200 runway overuns at NJA?

 

[G200_PILOT]

Quick note to those junior guys out there...

The comments I made on this thread over the last few days were made out of frustration. In no way would I ever look at someone in particular and tell them they shouldn't have been hired. Whether it's the folks from 2008 or not, our company is overstaffed at ALL levels. It seems that only recently, this issue has been FULLY looked at and is now being addressed in an aggressive manner. I've said this here as well as on the Union message board... I don't want to see ANYONE lose their job here. In one way or another, we've all worked very hard to get here. Having been here a while, I have made this my home and I've made some really great friends that I would look at as my extended family. That being said, if the survival of this great company means down-sizing, furloughing, or however else you wish to word it, then we have have no choice but to accept it. I'm not saying we roll over and just let them do whatever they want. Our great union leadership is on top of that and you can rest assured that IF it comes to letting even one person go, all other means have been exhausted. The issues I have with the whole deal is that comments such as pop made about who did what as far as contributing to the preventative measures creates a devision in itself. Many have done a lot while a smaller group could only do a little. The very small group of guys that couldn't do anything have their own reasons for not choosing to contribute. IF NetJets were to furlough in the next 6 months, guys like Pop and CRJ will blame it on those folks that did very little to help if any at all. These guys have convinced themselves that the current state of affairs could be solved if only we could get everyone to volunteer to take a pay cut in one form or another. This simply isn't true. Those deep in the works of it knew from the get-go that the PMs would only delay "right-sizing" at best. How many times have we heard "It worked for now, but what about 6 months from now when half the guys opt back out?" Come on guys. Wake up. Look, I'm done with this so write whatever you wish from here on out. I wish everyone on the seniority list the best. I'm sorry some of you are facing tough times. I'm even more sorry for the ones that put the blame on their fellow coworkers. The economy is the only thing to blame for all of this and as far as I can tell, NONE of us had anything to do with that.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Hey G was that you in MRY that tried to pawn off your trip to us. If it was I want a piece of you too. LOL:laugh:

No, not me. Not even sure where MRY is. Was it a good trip?

Yep, just checked. Never even been to Monterey, CA.

 

[G200_PILOT]

If you read my post fully, I said I was paraphrasing management's statements...they're not mine. I also didn't say EVERYONE. These sediments were repeated to me twice, during indoc, at least once during the interview, and once during IOE.

I believe I'm a good pilot with exceptional service skills, nothing more, so don't read into my post. I was trying to show G200_Pilot that the Class of 2008 is an asset...not a mistaken quota.

Avro... PLEASE don't take what I said to mean that the "Class of 2008" is a mistaken quota. If you look at the current situation, you'll agree that we're fat on pilots. The numbers have been all across the board but from what I was told by someone who would know just about better than any of us, that number is still somewhere well above the "90" we were told about last month. Obviously, if that number is 2-300, you're talking about the guys that were hired in 2008. That's all I was talking about. Everyone who shows up for work when they're asked to is an asset. The problem is that we're facing a situation where many are being kept at home. It's not their fault but a pilot sitting at home isn't an asset. He's an expense. No matter how you try and twist that, the end result will still be the same.

 

[popgoesbubble]

Now that's some funny ******************** right there. Don't care who you are. Who I am isn't that hard to figure out Einstein. You're not really the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree are you? Are you the guy that wears a hockey helmet to bed? I think so.

It takes balls to openly say what many hide behind. Don't like it? Put me on your ignore list. Reality is such and you're going to have to live with it.

BTW, the quickest way to get yourself fired is to start running around talking about what you would do if we ran into each other. Remember, it wouldn't be hard to figure out who you were either. Move on and figure out another way to express yourself besides violence. Not a smart path you're walking down.

Dude I'm Laughing at your post what are you gonna do run to teacher and say oh this NJA Pilot on his days off said I need to get my ass kicked you should fire him:crying::bawling:.. Grow a set of balls dude and post what you are saying here and put it on the NJASAP boards. I bet you haven't the stomach your a little man with a small dick that is a afraid of his own shadow.

OH and it also takes Balls and sign your name at the bottom of the post that you started or just write what you are saying on the NJASAP Boards
Pin Head!!

 

[G200_PILOT]

Dude I'm Laughing at your post what are you gonna do run to teacher and say oh this Off duty NJA Pilot said I need to get my ass kicked you should fire him.. Grow a set of balls dude and post what you are saying here and put it on the NJASAP boards. I bet you haven't the stomach your a little man with a small dick that is a afraid of his own shadow.

Again, you're clueless. I'll let someone else clue you in. I had ZERO hesitations posting my opinions on that message board. Believe me, I'd have ZERO issues telling you or anyone else exactly what I think.

Glass, you're 110% right.

 

[G200_PILOT]

OH and it also takes Balls and sign your name at the bottom of the post that you started or just write what you are saying on the NJASAP Boards
Pin Head!!

Really? Who are you again?

 

[glasspilot]

I'd cut G200 a little slack. I know where he is coming from. Times are very difficult out there for everyone. Some more that others, obviously.

He made nice in his last post and looks like he has realized what a touchy subject furloughs are. Nothing he said was all that factually wrong, it just wasn't very sensitive to the feelings of some guys who are facing VERY uncertain times. I've made that same mistake on public forums and the backlash for voicing an unpopular view, no matter how technically "correct" it may be, can be fierce.

There's enough problems in the world without adding this silliness to the pile, I say let G200 off the hook and try to stand as one to face the upcoming challenges.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Thanks Glass.

Guys, I'm not out to piss on the new guys nor am I here trying to agitate Pop. If you do your homework and find my posts and threads on the private message boards, you'll find that yes, I'm very out-spoken but that I also have a lot of respect for the junior guys. It wasn't until a particular junior NJA pilot started throwing big stones at those that couldn't sacrifice their firstborns to the cause, that I stepped away from it. I hate the current situation just as much as the most junior guy on our list. I have spent 10 years bragging to others about working for not only the best company in aviation, but also the strongest. To me, down sizing or furloughs is a sign of weakness. Someone, somewhere did something wrong to create that situation from having to happen. That's where I started my posts a few days ago. As the ball was starting to drop from their hands, we continued to hire pilots and eventually were left with what we have today. I'm as sorry as one could be to see that happen. I may have said it wrong (nothing new there) but all I was saying was that those that MAY have been hired here in a time where no hiring should have happened, AT LEAST have a guaranteed spot on our seniority list IF they're asked to leave.

 

[fischman]

March '08 Bear Steans goes down, still hiring. Summer '08 the stock market is freaking out, the talking heads are talking serious doom and gloom, still hiring. Also sitting on good jets with good crew doing nothing at LAX. I'm busier this summer.

Sept 15 Lehman goes out, Sept 29 stock market goes down 778. New hire class going on.

Next week I'm in Co-recurrent listen to how everything is OK. I'm wondering what is in the air in CMH. BTW, the day I got this mangement brief the market dropped another 300 odd points.

Not coming after you Fischman, but someone was asleep at the switch.

In hindsight it is easy to say that. Last year I didn't hear 1, NOT 1, single rumble about us hiring too many pilots from ANYONE. What the deal was last year was, "My buddy didn't get hired even tough I wrote him a LOR. He was the best out there. You don't have a clue what you are doing."

The bottom line is that NO ONE can say that someone dropped the ball or that someone should have stopped hiring, because NO ONE saw or was even CLOSE to seeing the DOW getting down to 7000. To say otherwise is horse $h!t. If you did in fact know, why weren't you and everyine else screaming at the tops of your lungs???

Because you didn't know how bad '09 was going to be. Again, NO ONE did.

 

[fischman]

There is absolutely no "brotherhood" in that post. All I get out of that is I want what's best for "ME, ME, ME!" If you were in the bottom 500 or so here you wouldn't be making selfish posts like that, I guarantee it.

Try finding employment in today's economy if you lose your job. It aint gonna happen. This is the worst economic situation we have seen in our lifetime. God forbid anyone VOLUNTARILY sacrifice some of their income to help out a junior guy from possibly losing their home, credit, marriage, etc.

You're one selfish S.O.B. I can't believe you were actually hired at NJA. Oh wait....when were you hired? You want to play that way? We can play that way. Senior vs. junior style, since that's what you just started with your post! And it is FI afterall......

Standing by for incoming since you always try to get the last word in. 3...2...1.......

P.S. To those who participated in the VM's, my family and I sincerely thank you.

Actually, G200 is one of the most generous people you will ever meet.

 

[fischman]

Are you really that naive? The economy and in turn the industry were visibly frothy in late 2007 and early 2008. I said aircraft orders were being deferred and sales were dropping like a rock at this time, and yet, the hiring train went on with everyone claiming no end in sight.

Can I borrow your crystal ball for a while? Please jonjuan. Tell us all what is going to happen in '10. :nuts:

Your flame baiting grows tiresome, and I hold absolutely no credit to anything you post or will post in the future. THAT is what my crystal ball tells me.

 

[RNObased]

To say otherwise is horse $h!t. If you did in fact know, why weren't you and everyine else screaming at the tops of your lungs???

Because you didn't know how bad '09 was going to be. Again, NO ONE did.

Nope, you never saw me complaining about my buddy not getting hired. I thought we were over hiring in '07.

Also I did ask one of our past senor mangers why we were hiring. This is after two tours in a row sitting with a good jet and a crew, last spring/summer. He gave me some mangement double speak and shoo'ed me away.

I'm not saying I knew how bad '09 was going to be, I'm saying '08 was sucking bad and no one realized it or would own up to it. I'm questioning the managers. Also don't get defensive you weren't the one making those decisions.

 

[RNObased]

Actually, G200 is one of the most generous people you will ever meet.

You are right about that, he doesn't even get mad when pilots hit on his wife. Kidding G200.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Guys, it's all good. I don't think there's a single person here that will argue the fact that these are some difficult and sensitive times. I'm sorry for the way I worded things. I hope some sort of miracle happens and we all skate through this without a scratch. If that miracle doesn't happen, those that know me, know that they can come to me ANYTIME if they need ANYTHING.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Your flame baiting grows tiresome,

You have failed me for the last time Admiral....