Will The AirTran Pilots' Windfall Be A Consideration?

[OK3]

The first year of the contract had $17 million in bonuses, which equates to around $20 million after retirement, FICA, etc., so back that out and you have $150 mil package, with $130 million of that in annual pay increases, divided over 5 years, or an annual increase of $26 million. Chump change.

So, the silly question of whether AirTran could afford the lousy $26 million increase per year our Contract cost is pretty much moot.

LoneStar, I'm assuming that you understand the difference between an Operating Profit and Net Profit. Many of the items that make up the difference are discretionary, ie choosing to retire debt early, investing in infrastructure outside of that required by current agreements, hedges, etc.

It's very easy to decide to make the net high or low, depending upon the desired outcome. Want to cry poor to a labor group in negotiations? Easy. Don't upgrade the tug fleet in 2012, do it now, and pay for it at once, instead of financing it or leasing. There goes $20 million (necessary, and look, we saved $1 million in interest, too!). Need to upgrade the computer terminals in 2011? Let's do it now, and pay cash. Oh, there went another $11 million. Sorry, guys, we don't have the money. Look at our Net Profit!

The problem AirTran isn't cost, it's revenue. Obviously, your CEO has run the numbers of what he can do with our airline with the projected synergies, and it vastly exceeds the costs of bringing ALL of AirTran to SWA pay rates.

While we're talking about this, I want to point out (again) that paying AirTran Pilots your current contract rates is not a "windfall" as the term is used in McCaskill/Bond and Allegheny/Piedmont merger law. A "windfall" in that context is "taking from one pilot group and giving it to another". This would not describe paying us your current rates, but it sure would describe taking our Captain seats and distributing them to your FO's.

Flame on, ladies.

OK Ty, one more time just because I am bored and you have never answered this question.

If B/M does not refer to pay and work rules as a consideration when it refers to a "windfall" what does it allow to be considered? If it only means one group can't gain seniority at the expense of the other what is left to consider? If one group can't gain seniority in an acquisition why did the legislation not just mandate relative seniority?

I have asked this question many times on many threads and have never received a reply. Perhaps because AAI guys know this argument is empty rhetoric and can't be defended.

 

[ivauir]

I find Bob Dylan's posts quite funny and entertaining, like watching a Rhesus Monkey throw feces around at a lab technician. I single him out for ridicule because he is not involved with either company and he is such an easy target.

All of the AirTran and Southwest posts are becoming too predictable, your above post is a perfect example. However, I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to be friendly when you insult us.

I can already predict your response but please feel free to post it anyway....

Why must you insist on being confrontational?

I have NEVER insulted even a signel AirTran pilot.

 

[Ty Webb]

OK Ty, one more time just because I am bored and you have never answered this question.

If B/M does not refer to pay and work rules as a consideration when it refers to a "windfall" what does it allow to be considered? If it only means one group can't gain seniority at the expense of the other what is left to consider? If one group can't gain seniority in an acquisition why did the legislation not just mandate relative seniority?

I have asked this question many times on many threads and have never received a reply. Perhaps because AAI guys know this argument is empty rhetoric and can't be defended.

I don't recall seeing the question previously. There has been so much stuff flying around (pun intended) that I probably missed it.

I don't pretend to know the answer, but I'll take a swag at it . . . My guess is that the answer involves adjustments to address the differences between the carriers. Bases, Fleet, growth, stagnation, reduction, retirement, etc.

Pay changes contract to contract, but seniority doesn't. If one group gives up seniority in exchange for pay differences, what happens if the next contract is negotiated under "austerity" measures that lessen or eliminate the pay gap? What now? How are you going to compensate the group that lost seniority in exchange for pay? There is no way to do so.

Yeah, I know, SWA will never go backwards in pay . . . and neither did UAL, DAL, NWA, Alaska, etc. Never say never. This industry is still one major event away from disaster, unfortunately.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Why do you guys even fight with Ty Webb? He (and all the AT guys) know the pay thing is a huge windfall. He's just trying to have his cake and eat it too. They know they are going to get the fat raise, they are just trying to cushion the seniority blow to come. Every AT guy knows they won the lottery. The thing you guys need to figure out at SWA is if the guys in the pool will go ahead of all the AT guys or if they will get sprinkled in with the AT guys at the bottom of the current SWA list. Even though they aren't on property, it really doesn't seem fair for a guy who couldn't get hired at SWA to go ahead of a guy in the SW pool that the company actually wanted.

 

[Max Powers]

Hey Red,

You guys have a great contract. I congratulate SWAPA pilots for achieving that. I say this with zero sarcasm.

The one hitch I can see in your calculations is this; There are no nine year FO's at AirTran. The nine year pilots at AirTran have been Captains for the last 6 to 6.5 years.

Cheers.

Could not have said it better!!

 

[S3sundowner]

SWA types: make a pact to quit arguing with these people here and now. Let the nc figure it out.

 

[Ty Webb]

Why do you guys even fight with Ty Webb? He (and all the AT guys) know the pay thing is a huge windfall. He's just trying to have his cake and eat it too. They know they are going to get the fat raise, they are just trying to cushion the seniority blow to come.

TankerToad, most folks who have been on FI for any period of time know all about you, and ignore you. They know you don't work for any airline, and spend your time mostly throwing poo at the Delta guys (apparently, you're still angry about being turned down).

You don't have any airline knowledge and probably couldn't even figure out how to get off the ramp without a "Follow Me" sign, so here's your "Follow Me" sign on this issue:

Seniority is a constant, pay rates are not.

Pay changes from contract to contract, but seniority doesn't. If one group gives up seniority in exchange for pay differences, what happens if the next contract is negotiated under "austerity" measures that lessen or eliminate the pay gap? What now? How are you going to compensate the group that lost seniority in exchange for pay? There is no way to do so.

Yeah, I know, SWA will never go backwards in pay . . . and neither did UAL, DAL, NWA, Alaska, etc. Never say never. This industry is still one major event away from disaster, unfortunately.

 

[ivauir]

That wasn't meant to be an insult, as much as an observation.

You can get away with a lot when the moderator is in your back pocket ...

 

[FL717]

The thing you guys need to figure out at SWA is if the guys in the pool will go ahead of all the AT guys or if they will get sprinkled in with the AT guys at the bottom of the current SWA list. Even though they aren't on property, it really doesn't seem fair for a guy who couldn't get hired at SWA to go ahead of a guy in the SW pool that the company actually wanted.

This was asked and answered already:

Southwest will probably run the 2 airlines separate for awhile. Then what will most likely happen... Southewest will want to combine ops... but the caveat will be that the Airtran Pilots will need to re-interview for jobs at Southwest.

As YOU mentioned earlier (SPOT ON ASSESSMENT)... almost ALL of the Airtran Pilots are NOT qualified to work at Southwest. Almost NONE of the Airtran Pilots have college degrees; almost ALL of the ex-military Pilots are bad conduct discharges; almost NONE of the Airtran Pilots have 121 time or have any turbine PIC except what they got while at Airtran; Almost ALL of the Airtran First Officers do NOT have ATP's; PLUS most of the Airtran Pilots have D.U.I's, criminal records, or as you so eloquently stated "Skeletons in their closets".

This is going to solve ALL of the Southwest integration issues/problems as the Airtran Pilots will simply be shown the door... and all the Southwest poolies and new hires will backfill the 95% of Airtran Pilots that will be gone.

Ask your buddy in the training department... he can very verify all of this.... AND he can verify my stats about the credentials of 95% of ALL the Airtran Pilots.

Great catch!! And GREAT solution to the question you pose!

 

[Ty Webb]

You can get away with a lot when the moderator is in your back pocket ...

Ty's done his time in the penalty box, too.

If you are offended by the word "idiot" it's a good thing you weren't on this board in the 90's. The word "idiot" was a term of endearment.