Will fly for free in BOS area

[Jolly007]

flying for free

Sorry guys, but most of you are taking this WAY out of proportion!

If you think that one, (or even a hundred) guys that want to further their careers by flying for free are going to affect your rates, or indeed affect much at all, then you don't understand the fundamentals of business.

If you guys with big egos are worth their daily rate, then you're gonna get it - believe me - that's how it works, and it's called supply and demand. I can understand that those who think they are getting over-compensated, might be concerned though - and rightly so!

I say good luck to this guy. Instead of sitting around on his ass, he's willing to spend his own time and money to get a little more experience. You know what, wouldn't it be ironic if he ends up getting a better daily rate than his critics here, because of his extra experience and hours!

Also, not quite sure of the 'whore' and 'prostitute' name-calling. I'm no expert in this area, but he's not the prostitute - we are - LOL. Whores don't come free in my city - they make money by charging large hourly fees for their services - sounds like a normal contract pilot to me!

Start getting worried when 30% of the pilots start working for free - not .01%

If 30% of pilots do start working for free, you know what - there's a bigger problem out there than what's being caused by those free guys to make that happen.


Richard

 

[rice]

Jolly, Don't take this the Wrong Way....

But, Shut the F#%k Up!!!!!!!!!!
I suppose we should all applaude the first a$$hole who PFT'd and the RJ guys should all give a pat on the back to their Mesa bretheren for that fantastic TA. I'm sure the guys at any of the Majors are happy to lose work to the regionals.
DISCLAIMER: This is not intended to be more flamebait, I'm just trying to make the point that no one is happy to lose work to someone or some group who'll do it for a rediculously low or non-existant wage.
When it gets to 30% its way too late to do anything about it. When an individual or group does something, which subverts the majority's ability to improve their working conditions and/or compensation, they (the indiv. or group) must be stopped before their actions can negatively influence the industry. Be afraid, be very afraid of that .01% because that is who will start the ball rolling which once it gets enough steam, will eventually cost you, me and everyone else our ability to earn a fair and decent wage or worse yet, our jobs.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Jolly,

you applaud this TOOL for having to work for free to gain some "magical" 70 hours??

I think he is a loser for having to THINK about working for free.

No excuses, no "situations", nothing..

The guy is a LOSER, the very type that lets employers save a few bucks by having FREE flight crews..

maybe he just LOVES to fly so much and is SO deperate that he is willing ot do anything for it..

Im not too old, but I do rememeber working 14hr days as a CFI making little money as TOOLS went to FSI to pay $12,000 to fly a EMB-120 or a DC-9...and this was after the $400 "evaluation" (er..credit check)!!...funny they are all quiet now until someone suggests they take a pay cut...then WOW they stand up and fight huh?? wonder how all this came about....


lets not let these types bring this pathetic practise back.

There ARE good paying jobs out there, are they hard to find? sure...and who gets them??? Guys/Gals with confidence and self worth, thats who.

 

[Jolly007]

Jolly,

There ARE good paying jobs out there, are they hard to find? sure...and who gets them??? Guys/Gals with confidence and self worth, thats who.

Then what the heck are you guys worried about - LOL again!

Somewhat amusing to see how angry and spiteful some of the so-called 'professional pilots' can get.

Hey, what do I care. I'd rather employ somebody like that guy, than guy's with attitudes similar to some of the members here. God help anyone who has a different opinion with Rice in the cockpit - I guess he'll just get told to 'shut the...up'

The market, and supply/demand dictates our rates. Not some lone guy (and that's what it is - be real!), who's working for free. Maybe some understanding of basic business is useful, as well as being able to fly.

 

[rice]

Jolly

Most people who know me on and off of this board know that I am not prone to blowing my top like that. But this is an issue that really hits a hot button with me.
I have my opinion and you have yours which is fine. I happen to think that I'm on the side with the most votes to this point and even if I wasn't I'd still maintain my view. I completely understand business and supply vs. demand; it is the guy who is willing to provide his pilot service for free who you need to be counseling on Business 101. He is the one who is undermining the industry by artificially affecting the supply side.
Again sorry about the profanity, you're right it isn't very professional but hey what good are message boards if we can't vent once in a while.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

maybe rice is pi$$ed because he happens to be looking for a PAYING job - imagine that - a paying job...

good jobs go to guys who know thier worth, guys who Ho' for free bounce around at $hit jobs for years....but you probably know that with your keen business sense.

hey, its just an opinion, but as you can tell it really angers many here when guys like this surface.....flamebait or not.


and hey, about sharing the cockpit with a guy like that....I really dont think I gotta worry about that .

 

[Jolly007]

good jobs go to guys who know thier worth, guys who Ho' for free bounce around at $hit jobs for years

Like I quoted you before - if you really think this, then what the heck are you concerned about???

I don't disagree with that remark at all ... I just don't see what the "guys who know their worth" are worried about!

They should be worried if the "guys who Ho' for free" got the good jobs right??? But you don't seem to think that is the case.

I might be p$%%ed if this guy had any other intentions other than furthering his career.

Hey, each to his own opinions - that's what these forums are great for - voicing opinions and having the odd disagreement. I just know this isn't going to affect my rates or job market one little jot, so why get upset about it - there are more serious things I can assure you

 

[bigD]

I just know this isn't going to affect my rates or job market one little jot, so why get upset about it

I'm not a big fan of this argument. It reminds me of the "Why should I vote? I'm just one person in millions - my vote won't affect anything." attitude.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

You are right,

this TOOL wont affect my or your pay one bit....

until (god forbid) you or I are out looking for a job. Dont think it cant happen. I know it can, and I dont want to compete with these rodents.

You are thinking too small man!

heres the scenario:

Joe Moron (our Dash 8 friend) finds a scumbag 135 gig that is happy to let him fly for free. He is psyched, he gets his 1000 turbine PIC. Thinking this is going to make him the only guy out there these days with 1000 PIC turbine (yeah..) he is shocked to find nobody wants to hire him...so...now that he worked for free for months - the house in in foreclosure, the wife is bangin' some other guy (who gets a paycheck), and the kids are hungry...so Joe Moron goes on the job search again, only to find that there are all these MORONS out there willing to work for FREE!! How can they do that!!...what happened to this industry he thinks??....I guess its just the "economic cycle" or the "evil republicans", or "the war" or something right?....after all, its just how aviation is right??...

Wrong, its self respect.

He is not trying to furthur his career, he is kicking an already battered industry SQUARE IN THE NUTS.

 

[Jolly007]

In reply to the voter comparison:

Not a good comparison - I know that around 50% of the population, (which is 100,000,000 maybe??), are going to vote - I also know (and so do you) that an extremely small percentage of pilots fly for free.

Maybe you can think of a better one....


as for G200 reply....boy, what a dreamworld you live in....if you're worth it, you'll be flying at great rates for the next 20 years. So will I.

Boy, what do corporate pilots need next to blame things on...Airlines, Whores, ex-Military, FAA......??

 

[rice]

Jolly

Give it a break man!!!!!

G200,
You know we're together on this issue but fighting this fight with jolly is like pounding sand.

Appreciate you "gettin my back though" . " You da man".

 

[Gulfstream 200]

yeah, this can go on forever..

everyone is certainly entitled to thier opinion, thats what these boards are about I guess....

Im going back to my "dream world" now..

as far as 20 years at good rates...I need at least 30 more or retirement may not be as pretty as we hope!!! oH well.....cant complain too much I suppose!

 

[Jolly007]

I'd be happy to agree with you guys if I hear a reasonable argument from you, apart from anger and name-calling...all I see is repetitive contradictions about the good guys getting the good jobs

Happy Flying.....anyone looking for a free pilot??

 

[Gulfstream 200]

hey c'mon man

name callin' is what its about.

toughen up or get yer a$$ out of the sandbox!

just kidding...and yes, sure we love free pilots around here!!!

see ya

 

[bigD]

Not a good comparison - I know that around 50% of the population, (which is 100,000,000 maybe??), are going to vote - I also know (and so do you) that an extremely small percentage of pilots fly for free.

So using your hundred million voters number, my vote represents .000001% of those who voted. Is this not an extremely small percentage? Seems like it to me.

1) So why should I care to vote if my vote means so little?

2) Why should I care if I take a job for free when I represent such a small percentage of pilots in the job market?


You don't see the similarities in these two scenarios?

 

[Jolly007]

Well at the risk of continuing this discussion.......the difference is that you know that 99,999,999 other people are going to vote....49.99% of pilots aren't going to work for free (in MY opinion).....I'm not sure whether it's for or against my argument - it's just not a similar comparison that's all!

You are right, if everybody said "my vote doesn't count, so I won't vote" then nobody would vote. If everybody said "Let's fly for free", the nobody would make any money as pilots....I just happen to be a little realistic in what is really happening out there, and we aren't in danger, in my opinion, of the pilot market being flooded with people flying for free.

This argument/discussion comes up from time to time over the years, and the truth in the matter is that apart from the odd 'Ho' getting ripped apart, it has absolutely no effect on the industry - apart from maybe making more pilots irate, and some failed medicals due to High BP from the forums

 

[bigD]

Wait a minute Jolly - this conversation has become too civil for a message board.

Screw you!!!!

 

[750driver]

Well at the risk of continuing this discussion.......the difference is that you know that 99,999,999 other people are going to vote....49.99% of pilots aren't going to work for free (in MY opinion).....I'm not sure whether it's for or against my argument - it's just not a similar comparison that's all!

Jolly, you can sit here and quote percentages all day long, but when it comes down to the wire, it's the ONE pilot that takes YOUR job that makes all the difference.

I had this happen to me many years ago when I was flying piston twins. I helped my wealthy boss research, select, and acquire a turbocharged Piper twin. We flew it for a short time, and I charged a fair rate for the equipment and my time.

This dirtbag I knew approached my boss when I was vacationing in Colorado. He offered to do it .... you guessed it ... for FREE. Trust me, I found this out the hard way, when my wife & I saw him taxiing by with my boss as they both waived. At the time, I needed this job, and the resultant loss of paycheck definitely hurt.

The satisfaction came a few weeks later when I found out he blew a few cylinders on that turbocharged Continental. It was very expensive to fix

Moral of the story: you get what you pay for, and yes ... all it takes is one person to bring this industry down for us all.

 

[Jolly007]

750Driver,


You know who's the guy with the problem in your example?? It's your 'wealthy boss', not the guy offering to work for free in my opinion.

That is part of my argument. If everything that you guys say is true, that the quality guys get the quality job, and those who value themselves get paid the what they deserve....then surely the opposite must be true?

The scenario you just described could happen for ANY job. I don't see hundreds of accountants working for free, or even McDonalds servers - it's because 'most' employers have reasons other than pay, to hire an employee....as you guys seem to keep saying.

I'm all for name-calling, but do it to the right people - your boss in your example. If the other guy was as good as pilot and employee as you, and was hired under the same conditions as you but for free - then that maybe bad work ethics by your boss, but that's how business works. No employer in their right mind is going to hire a person with EXACTLY the same qualifications as you for more money.

The same is happening with computer guys in India charging 10% of the rates that guys in the USA charge - I'm not calling them scabs. Things will change over time...The Japs brought us cheap bad quality cars a couple of decades ago ...now I'm driving a Lexus...and the Japs make the best quality cars in the world (one of the best).

Anyway..I think I'm going off on a tangent

and screw all you guys too...A$$holes.......just to prove I can be colorful too

 

[pa56pa]

huh???

The same is happening with computer guys in India charging 10% of the rates that guys in the USA charge - I'm not calling them scabs. Things will change over time...The Japs brought us cheap bad quality cars a couple of decades ago ...now I'm driving a Lexus...and the Japs make the best quality cars in the world (one of the best).

Jolly,

You really need to find a better example.... Because of the exchange rate in rupees, or pesos, yen or HK dollars, etc.... and because the dollar is stronger in the 3rd world countries.... and trust me, you can live like a king in India with your so-called 10% rate... as it offers the 3rd world people a luxury lifestyle..... I highly doubt Indians, Japanese and/or the likes would ever work for FREE... especially toward an American company... believe me, they get paid very well relative to their own currency and cost of living...

 

[Jolly007]

I did admit I was going off on a tangent

You're right of course....to a certain extent..... BUT it actually does still amount to somebody doing exactly the same job in the USA for an almost zero salary. The reasons behind the zero salary (or almost) are irrelevant, whether it be exchange rates or because the guy can't get a job.....it's the effect is has on the rates in the USA.

 

[cherokee]

A question: Why would your friend offer to fly for free?

Answer: His only reason is to try to get the job by undercutting
everyone else. He is screwing another person out of a paying job. Now it may not be you or me THIS TIME but it just may be next time, regardless of your percentages and 'fundamentals of business'. And that is just wrong.

It's as simple as that.

 

[Jolly007]

People getting jobs by undercutting is wrong....?????


Aaaarrghhhh!! You'd better tell every company and person that bids for anything in the USA that they are doing the wrong thing

and before you tell me this....I'm comparing same with same...obviously somebody with higher quality/experience can bid higher (so YOU guys keep admitting to me - so whats the problem????????).


Not worth arguing much more....Oh I learn so much about my fellow pilots from these forums

 

[cherokee]

Yes flying for free to get 70 hrs. to get your 'magical 1000' when someone else needs that job to pay his families bills is wrong. I guess I'll go over to American Airlines the next time they are hiring and tell them I'll work for 50% (or 100%?) less than regular pilots if they will only hire me instead. Me, me, me, me, me!!! Yes, I also learn a lot about some of my fellow pilots on this board too.

 

[GREAT LAKES]

Jolly 007

You make me sick jolly007

 

[pa56pa]

hey Jolly

I'm just curious Jolly, if a job you were applying for ever got awarded to someone else willing to do it for free, would you say to yourself, "oh well, that's the nature of business.... time to move on " or would you get upset and feel differently as do so many pilots who have shared their concerns about this very issue and say "G0d, that sunova b_tch!!!" ?? I believe when we're sitting comfortably and the world is going our way, it is much easier to say , "oh well, that's the nature of business", but if you're going hungry, and in an otherwise desperate situation, you may thing differently....

 

[Jolly007]

Well pa56pa, that's a good question, and I have been a similar situation...although not exactly as you described.

I have been in a situation, probably twice at least, where another has undercut me, and got the job only because he was cheaper...in fact in one case he was certainly far less qualified. Was I upset and mad at the time??? Sure I was! I need a job as much as the next guy. The difference is that firstly, I didn't bear a grudge against this guy for the rest of his life and call him the lowest form of life on earth - he was just trying to get a job like I was - I wouldn't do it, but he did and somebody employed him for it. I was probably more angry at the employer who made decisions regarding his future pilots seemingly based upon cost alone. My anger didn't last too long and yes I did try and say to myself that "this is the nature of business", because that's what I believe (if it isn't obvious )

Another comment about pilots needing to feed families etc. etc. I'm not a believer that EVERY pilot out there is living from pay check to pay check, and has a family of 6 living at his airport in a RV and begging for food scraps every day. If they are, then they should be looking for another career - there are plenty of other careers out there for guys like them (i.e. presumably well educated).

Also, regarding working as a contract pilot. The job has risks which is why the rates are higher than a permanent position (higher risk, higher rewards). It also takes a certain personality and attitude to work on a contract basis. If you can't take the odd job being lost because of some a$$hole undercutting you, then perhaps you aren't the type of person that fits working as a contract pilot.

Just some thoughts!

Good discussion, even if I am in the minority

 

[jergar999]

Jolly,

I understand what you are saying, but you have missed the point entirely. You say it is the bosses fault for using the free guy, not the guy who wants to be paid. Assuming management has all the money and needs a job done, and pilots need the money and can do the job, it's very simple:

If no one will do it for free, money has to change hands. If someone will, management, owners, etc. will profit and every pilot that needed work will still need work. The problem is jerk #1 decides to do it for free, so no money changes hands, management profits and a precendent is set.

Everyone has heard of the trickle down theory of economics, I think it works backwards in aviation. If someone will pay for a low level job, or work for free in the hope of moving to something better that's one less opportunity for everyone. Maybe someone will CFI for free in the hopes of getting on with a regional airline. He builds his flight time quickly, but everyones heard about it and they have done it too. Now the airline has three times the qualified applicants and can pay as little as they want, someone will take the seat. One guy wanted to get ahead, so he moved the bar down for everyone, and it works its way up the ladder.

The whole point is, if in an effort to get ahead one person will take a shortcut, or undercut another pilot then he/she is hurting pilots, not the companies that employ them. It's a domino effect that works its way up the chain, and unless pilots are united in that they provide a service and should be compensated, they can be played against one another, which isn't good for any pilot.

 

[400A]

fly for free

We fight the same blasted problem in our town, but is is a slightly different game.

Retired airline pilots with handsome pensions who just want to PLAY often offer to fly light jets for free. It screws up everything!

Sometimes it is even union guys not bashful at all about talking about scabs.......Interesting

 

[phantom122]

People who are willing to offer their pilot services for free are part of the problem, not part of the solution. These same people will cross picket lines and do whatever they have to do to look out for No. 1.