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Will ATN/ALPA force this on their pilot group?

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Hose A. Jiminez

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2003
Posts
600
or will the group force it on themselves?



Captain Chuck Magill
Vice President Flight Operations
Southwest Airlines Co.
XXXX Xxxxxxx Xxx Xxxx
Dallas, TX 75235

Dear Chuck:

THIS TRANSITION AGREEMENT is made and entered into in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between SOUTHWEST AIRLINES CO. and the AIRLINE PILOTS in the service of SOUTHWEST AIRLINES CO., as represented by the SOUTHWEST AIRLINES PILOTS’ ASSOCIATION.


Until such time as the flight operations of the two carriers can be combined under a single operating certificate, Southwest would keep flight crews of the two carriers separate, as required by Federal Aviation Regulations, and in compliance with applicable negotiated agreements between Southwest and SWAPA.

As a consequence of Southwest’s acquisition of the stock of AirTran Holdings, Inc., Southwest and SWAPA wish to establish a mechanism for operating Southwest and AirTran as separate carriers until and unless Southwest combines AirTran and Southwest into a single carrier. This Transition Agreement is an integral first step in that process. Therefore, Southwest and SWAPA do hereby agree as follows:

1-G. Complete Operational Merger. The operation of Southwest and AirTran as a single air carrier under a Single Operating Certificate issued by the FAA, after establishment of a single transportation system under the RLA, and under an Integrated Seniority List.

1-Q. Single Operating Certificate. SOC. An air carrier certificate issued by the Federal
Aviation Administration, under which Southwest and AirTran will be permitted to
operate as a single air carrier.

3-A. General. Prior to Complete Operational Merger, Southwest will maintain and operate Southwest and AirTran flight operations as separate carriers as delineated in Section 1.C.1 of the SWAPA CBA. Such period of separate operations shall not exceed 24 months, unless Southwest and the SWAPA BOD or its designee otherwise agree.





Section 6
Transition Job Security Protections

6-A. Furlough.

(i) In accordance with Section 1.C.1. of the SWAPA CBA, no pilot on the SWAPA
Master Seniority list will be furloughed prior to Complete Operational Merger.

(ii) Unless prohibitive conditions beyond the control of Southwest occur, to include
extreme economic conditions, no Southwest Pilot will be placed on furlough
during the first year following Complete Operational Merger.

(iii) Southwest shall immediately notify SWAPA if any such furlough is anticipated,
and shall promptly meet with SWAPA upon request to discuss and consider
alternatives that might avoid or mitigate the effects of a furlough.

6-B. Fragmentation.

If a government agency requires Southwest to give up assets as a
condition of approval of the merger, to the extent possible, Southwest will ensure that any divestiture of aircraft, route authority, gates, or slots shall be those of AirTran.

Section 7
Single Operating Certificate
If Southwest determines that it will combine Southwest and AirTran into one single air carrier, it will so advise SWAPA and will take such actions as are necessary and appropriate to secure expeditious issuance by the FAA of a Single Operating Certificate.

(d) In the event that an integrated seniority list is reached through negotiations, the
following shall apply:
(i) SWAPA and ALPA will each designate members of their respective
Negotiating Committees to comprise an Implementation Work Group,
whose sole responsibilities will be to negotiate an implementation
schedule with the Companies to include:
a. Adjustment of the AirTran-ALPA CBA to reflect the
compensation and benefits of the SWAPA CBA;
b. Application of the SWAPA CBA to AirTran pilots;
c. B717 rates of pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA
CBA to Southwest and AirTran pilots; and
d. International pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA
CBA to Southwest and AirTran pilots.
 
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also relevant

pay_airtran2010corrected.jpg

Check out those year one 717 rates!!! (Capt-$106, FO-$43) Losing longevity would be a tough pill to swallow, but I can certainly understand why the company would want it.

One week of vacation? Sounds good.

Probation? Likely...

This is all decided by SWA and SWAPA absent a negotiated deal.
 
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I've read more intelligent writing on ********************house walls.

Small wonder most AAI guys don't bother coming here any more.
 
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Sorry, man, I'm not debating our internal union policies with you.

If you have a beef, call your reps.
 
pay_airtran2010corrected.jpg

Check out those year one 717 rates!!! (Capt-$106, FO-$43) Losing longevity would be a tough pill to swallow, but I can certainly understand why the company would want it.

One week of vacation? Sounds good.

Probation? Likely...

This is all decided by SWA and SWAPA absent a negotiated deal.



You're sounding really desperate Jose. If you're this desperate for a deal, then we're doing the right thing.

You're acting like a scab covered hooker, puzzled that nobody wants her.
 
Ty, Dicko,

Your merger committee was a key player in the AIP, your own pilots on the MC made this deal...

Is there any truth to the rumor that a law suit has been filed against/threatened if AAI ALPA/MEC withholds the AIP from membership vote? on the AIP??
 
Ty, Dicko,

Your merger committee was a key player in the AIP, your own pilots on the MC made this deal...

Is there any truth to the rumor that a law suit has been filed against/threatened if AAI ALPA/MEC withholds the AIP from membership vote? on the AIP??

I'm wondering how AAI ALPA doesn't get a DFR lawsuit by NOT VOTING AT ALL!

Interesting times for sure.

RF
 
Ty, Dicko,

Your merger committee was a key player in the AIP, your own pilots on the MC made this deal...

Is there any truth to the rumor that a law suit has been filed against/threatened if AAI ALPA/MEC withholds the AIP from membership vote? on the AIP??



It's the MEC's job to decide whether or not to send it out. They'd be abrogating their responsibility if they didn't consider whether it met the criteria.

The system is theoretically designed to protect idiots from harming themselves because they're scared of shadows.

Theoretically .... :D
 
It is my understanding that the MC has one item left to finish on the transition agreement. The MEC will meet very soon. Btw, what is the big rush for? It's not like SOC is waiting on this. We have time.
 
It is my understanding that the MC has one item left to finish on the transition agreement. The MEC will meet very soon. Btw, what is the big rush for? It's not like SOC is waiting on this. We have time.


Exactly.

SWA Management wants us to waive our Scheduling protections on date of signing. Combined with the transfer of flying our QOL will immediately go down hill fast.

They want us to wait until April 2012 until they pay us, and years later for the SWAPA contract.

No rush ..... We've got till April 2012.
 
Exactly.

SWA Management wants us to waive our Scheduling protections on date of signing. Combined with the transfer of flying our QOL will immediately go down hill fast.

They want us to wait until April 2012 until they pay us, and years later for the SWAPA contract.

No rush ..... We've got till April 2012.

Mr. dick,

Can you explain the QOL drop?
 
Here is an example (one of many) of language that needs to be iron clad. The 737 crews will be transitioned first. If a junior 737 makes it over to the SW side, what happens if there is a furlough on the Airtran side? The transitioned junior 737 pilot would be on the SW side, covered underthe furlough protection, and me a middle senior 717 guy could get furloughed? You guys have to understand that the language of the protections is HUGE. I would say me getting furloughed before a junior Airtran pilot is extremely unfair and not equitable. Our lawyers NEED to take their time to ensure the deal is fair.
 
Here is an example (one of many) of language that needs to be iron clad. The 737 crews will be transitioned first. If a junior 737 makes it over to the SW side, what happens if there is a furlough on the Airtran side? The transitioned junior 737 pilot would be on the SW side, covered underthe furlough protection, and me a middle senior 717 guy could get furloughed? You guys have to understand that the language of the protections is HUGE. I would say me getting furloughed before a junior Airtran pilot is extremely unfair and not equitable. Our lawyers NEED to take their time to ensure the deal is fair.

I see, and agree with you. You guys are just CYA'ing yourself. I don't think thats what SWA was intending to do, maybe that's why the language is laid back. But I do agree with you if I was in your shoes. Can't wait till this is done.
 
Mr. dick,

Can you explain the QOL drop?


Yes, I'd like an answer to this, too.

We've all been hearing the sob stories about sitting weekend reserve commuting across the country. What has been conveniently left out of the whining, though, is that 2/3 of the AT pilots are on the 717, and with the seat locks, those guys will be maintaining a far better lifestyle than they've been letting on, since they won't have to fight SWA guys for seniority in those seats. Even after the seat locks expire in 3 years, the wonderful SWAPA contract precludes any SWA pilot displacing a sitting former AT guy from their seat, thus making the seat and equipment protections pretty much indefinite, barring a reduction in overall manning, which is unlikely.

Someone else asked what SWA pilots are losing in this deal. Well, I and others are gaining a maximum 9% increase in seniority, but with no chance of upgrading for the foreseeable future, as we will not be growing, but simply assimilating the AT group and operation into ours. So, sounds like the AT guys (with the exception of the few 737 pilots who are downsized out of ATL) will be losing nothing in QOL, and yet receiving huge financial and benefits gains (no more $500/month for medical, eh?). SWA pilots get a small gain in seniority that does jack squat.
 
Yes, I'd like an answer to this, too.

We've all been hearing the sob stories about sitting weekend reserve commuting across the country. What has been conveniently left out of the whining, though, is that 2/3 of the AT pilots are on the 717, and with the seat locks, those guys will be maintaining a far better lifestyle than they've been letting on, since they won't have to fight SWA guys for seniority in those seats. Even after the seat locks expire in 3 years, the wonderful SWAPA contract precludes any SWA pilot displacing a sitting former AT guy from their seat, thus making the seat and equipment protections pretty much indefinite, barring a reduction in overall manning, which is unlikely.

Someone else asked what SWA pilots are losing in this deal. Well, I and others are gaining a maximum 9% increase in seniority, but with no chance of upgrading for the foreseeable future, as we will not be growing, but simply assimilating the AT group and operation into ours. So, sounds like the AT guys (with the exception of the few 737 pilots who are downsized out of ATL) will be losing nothing in QOL, and yet receiving huge financial and benefits gains (no more $500/month for medical, eh?). SWA pilots get a small gain in seniority that does jack squat.

It is a maximum 9% increase. Until such time it is zero to much less than 9%. You will be earning much less, however.
 
Is there any truth to the rumor that a law suit has been filed against/threatened if AAI ALPA/MEC withholds the AIP from membership vote? on the AIP??

No lawsuit has been filed, and I haven't heard anything about a lawsuit being threatened. I would be surprised if lawsuits weren't filed after all of this is done, though, regardless of which way it goes. Lawsuits always result from seniority integrations. It's just a given.
 
Yes, I'd like an answer to this, too.

We've all been hearing the sob stories about sitting weekend reserve commuting across the country. What has been conveniently left out of the whining, though, is that 2/3 of the AT pilots are on the 717, and with the seat locks, those guys will be maintaining a far better lifestyle than they've been letting on, since they won't have to fight SWA guys for seniority in those seats. Even after the seat locks expire in 3 years, the wonderful SWAPA contract precludes any SWA pilot displacing a sitting former AT guy from their seat, thus making the seat and equipment protections pretty much indefinite, barring a reduction in overall manning, which is unlikely.

Someone else asked what SWA pilots are losing in this deal. Well, I and others are gaining a maximum 9% increase in seniority, but with no chance of upgrading for the foreseeable future, as we will not be growing, but simply assimilating the AT group and operation into ours. So, sounds like the AT guys (with the exception of the few 737 pilots who are downsized out of ATL) will be losing nothing in QOL, and yet receiving huge financial and benefits gains (no more $500/month for medical, eh?). SWA pilots get a small gain in seniority that does jack squat.


This is all very valid. I think a lot of the AAI pilots QOL might actually increase with the multiple smaller bases that are on the way. For the all AAI guys on the 717 and the 737 pilots in ATL they will still be bidding only against other AAI pilots because no SWA pilot can get into those places. That covers the majority of the AAI group. The only ones who will be bidding against SWA pilots will be the 737 pilots pushed out of ATL. Most of the seniority gains and losses on both sides are on paper only and won't have much effect on our monthly bidding.
 
No lawsuit has been filed, and I haven't heard anything about a lawsuit being threatened. I would be surprised if lawsuits weren't filed after all of this is done, though, regardless of which way it goes. Lawsuits always result from seniority integrations. It's just a given.

Got any plans for that PCL?
 
Still waiting for the final language, but according to rumor, the 717 will not be operated under the SWA scheduling rules. It may also lose some/many of the scheduling protections in our CBA. This would mean that their seniority would not change, per se, but their bases, scheduling, and protections could change.

If true, this is but one example of why it takes time to nail down the language so everyone knows what they are agreeing to (or not).
 
11 year SWA FO flying with 6 year former AAI CP, wrong in every sense of the word and an arbitrator would see it the same way...the AIP deal is a great deal for the junior AAI CPS (especially the 74 guys that upgraded since the snapshot)...every FO (AAI and SWA) are paying the price for the 815 retention slots protected to 2020...disgusting but negotiated...
 
And so is stapling 650 AAI FO'S.

Hey at least 200 are not, and your captains keep their seat. I explained this deal to some people at headquarters the other day. They said that is a hell of a deal if not more than fair. These people are 25-30 year veterans that have built this company.
 
And so is stapling 650 AAI FO'S.


Sorry, but I beg to differ. Most SWA guys think it should have been more. And when you consider all the protections you all are getting, you're whining about a paper seniority reduction. And yes, I even mean beyond 10 years from now. As far as upgrades go, with all your Captain seat protections, doubtful many FOs from either side would be upgrading over the next 10 years.

BTW, if you're worrying about furloughs, I wouldn't. We have never furloughed, and that is one thing that GK would avoid at all costs. Even if he wouldn't, the SWAPA group would do whatever it took to avoid it as well.
 
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Mr. dick,

Can you explain the QOL drop?


Dearest Tex,

Yes I can. It would take too long. You wouldn't understand and you actually don't care.

Clever play on words by the way .... Well played, Witty stuff. ;)
 

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