WHY WHY WHY..why R we hiring 210 hr pilots?

[RJP]

There are pilots with 400 hours that can handle flying a jet. Most pilots that went throught military training should be able to handle it. I'm sure there are quite a few civilian trained pilots that would be able to handle it too.

Sure, there are some civilian-trained pilots who could handle a jet.....if they got their PPL and went to millitary pilot training!

 

[Goose Egg]

AMRAAM -- Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile

Yeah, but what's a "lauch?"

 

[pilotyip]

There is a pilot shortage coming, so airlines are redefining competitive minimums. This leads up to the hiring boom of June 2007

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

dude...hate to burst your bubble but they have all done it...yup you heard it...might not be public but most, if not all regionals have. ASA, Xpressjet, Eagle, Comair, ACA(used to), and all the pay for training carriers...you guys might not believe me, but they have all done it. I know for a fact, there are published mins...and then there are the other mins...in fact...believe it or not...at an undisclosed regional, the guys that busted training where never the low timers...the difference was they had to come from a structured program...like riddle, purdue, flight safety, etc...this is not a new concept guys...they have been at it for years now.

not to add fuel to the fire...but say you take the top 5% of purdue and riddle grads...with their 200 hours and put them in a jet...isn't that the same as a company like Microsoft taking the top 5% of MIT grads and putting them in charge? Or the Air Force commisioning the top students from the Air Force Academy and giving them flight slots? Guys flight time is important...but attitude and judgement is what kills you in an airplane...especially when its structured training. I am in the left seat of a CRJ...and the guys that scare me are not the 200, 300, 500, 900 hour guys...the ones that scare me are the cocky bastards that think they are chuck yeager with 100 hours or 10000 hours

The 800 to 1000 hour F/O's that I had WERE from Purdue and Riddle.....The early first wave of this trend. They could barely handle a 31000 pound Turboprop on a good day. They were severly lacking in any kind of real world judgment and IFR experience. Common errors on a good weather day included procedure errors in the IFR system, forgetting or missetting altimeters, altitude busts (at least tried to), couldn't interpret a radar picture, would call for flaps and gear way above placard speeds, couldn't figure out how to enter holds on the fly, would attempt to intercept a false localizer needle, missed or misinterpreted radio calls on a regular basis, misread performance charts and W/B figures and come up with bad numbers (off enough to kill you), would call completed checklists while the packs remained off and the A/C unpressurized. Etc.

The list goes on, everybody makes mistakes, but unless things have changed drastically in the last few years the Captain is having to do the job of both pilots, I know we were when we had our group of the "Program" newhires.

Safety suffered because of it.

 

[L.Skywalker]

Otto, I readily admit that interviews are not my strong point, other than that no faults as to record or otherwise. Thanks for the words and I'll get to airlineapps.com for Mesa right away.

Thanks Again!

 

[BoilerUP]

Kerosene,

I would like to think many pilots coming out of those programs you mentioned today have learned from the problems of those more arrogant that have come before them. You've been there and done that in the past, and although the programs you mentioned are excellent, there are some people coming out of my program that I personally don't think have the skills, knowledge or experience to do well, while others I would be completely comfortable with. Admittedly, they have a steeper learning curve than those with 135 experience, but a positive attitude and eager willingness to learn go a long way in mitigating that problem. What you describe is a complete and total lack of situation awareness, and is inexcusable in a 121 environment.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Kerosene,

I would like to think many pilots coming out of those programs you mentioned today have learned from the problems of those more arrogant that have come before them. You've been there and done that in the past, and although the programs you mentioned are excellent, there are some people coming out of my program that I personally don't think have the skills, knowledge or experience to do well, while others I would be completely comfortable with. Admittedly, they have a steeper learning curve than those with 135 experience, but a positive attitude and eager willingness to learn go a long way in mitigating that problem. What you describe is a complete and total lack of situation awareness, and is inexcusable in a 121 environment.

I hope that the problems have been corrected. We had 1 of that group that was excellent. However, he was the only one of the group that had any real experience, he had flown a Baron in corporate work on the weekends while flight instructing at his university during the week. There is no substitute for real world flying. The rest had at most 100 to 200 hours of multi time, all as an MEI. That first winter in the north east with these folks was very interesting to say the least. Let me tell you there is nothing that will get your attention more than a 200 1/2 approach in blowing snow being flown by a guy that still thought a Seminole was fast!

 

[Big Dog]

Think of it in terms of legalities...

At the bare minimum, in the unfortunate situatation that the captain becomes unable to perform their duties, the FO should be able to LEGALLY PIC the A/C, minimum ATP & Type Rating in Part 121.

 

[CA1900]

This will continue as long as RJ's aren't falling out of the sky.

If you'll recall last October, a CRJ did exactly that. The FO had 761 hours of total time, 222 of them in the CRJ. By my math, that means he was hired with 539 hours, and that was after his 250-hour stint at Gulfstream.

Anyone can fly them.

Well, I hate to speak ill of the dead, but clearly not.

 

[FN FAL]

So a guy with 800 hours in a 172 is more qualified than the guy with 200 hours in the same type of airplane?

Define more qualified? The regs set the minimum qualifications for who can hold the right seat, there is no MORE QUALIFIED definition by the FAA.

 

[FN FAL]

I think an ATP should be a minimum requirement fornew hires .

Hmmmm...yea, lets pay for what the airlines are supposed to give us...why not make the type a requirement? And for airlines with two types, make sure to require that the applicant has both.

 

[puddlejumper101]

The 800 to 1000 hour F/O's that I had WERE from Purdue and Riddle.....The early first wave of this trend. They could barely handle a 31000 pound Turboprop on a good day. They were severly lacking in any kind of real world judgment and IFR experience. Common errors on a good weather day included procedure errors in the IFR system, forgetting or missetting altimeters, altitude busts (at least tried to), couldn't interpret a radar picture, would call for flaps and gear way above placard speeds, couldn't figure out how to enter holds on the fly, would attempt to intercept a false localizer needle, missed or misinterpreted radio calls on a regular basis, misread performance charts and W/B figures and come up with bad numbers (off enough to kill you), would call completed checklists while the packs remained off and the A/C unpressurized. Etc.

The list goes on, everybody makes mistakes, but unless things have changed drastically in the last few years the Captain is having to do the job of both pilots, I know we were when we had our group of the "Program" newhires.

Safety suffered because of it.

i know that happens...i have been in your shoes too...babysitting fo's...but honestly, I have seen that gap in both guys and gals with tons of hours too. What it comes down to is this. I have noticed that the new hires that have no 121 or turbine experience for the most part have a steeper learning curve than the guys that have had previous airline or turbine experience. I have seen it in guys going from a Brasilia to a CRJ both left and right seat...new environment, new airplane will cause new problems for most of us. The difference is once you have played the 121 game...you kinda know what to expect in training. All I can say is this, if you are going to hire low time guys, just make sure they are sharp...well let me rephrase that...all new hires should be sharp. A sharp 200 hour pilot from a structured program will do ok...I have seen it. We all have growing pains...but I still think attitude, knowledge, and judgement is more important than 200, 2000, or 20000 hours. What we do isn't rocket science...you just need the right mind set to do it well. When a guy screws up and he has 5000 hours we don't think twice about the flight time...when the pilot only has 500 hours, we immediatly blame it on lack of experience. We all screw up...at some point or another.

 

[Goose Egg]

What we do isn't rocket science...you just need the right mind set to do it well.

That's the truth.

-Goose

 

[Midnight Flyer]

what regionals are hiring people with just over 200 hours?
Why????? I just can't comprehend.

Easy. It's all about money. Regionals don't pay crap, so they are forced to hire pilots willing to work for pennies. The only pilots willing to work for pennies are pilots with little or no experience. What experienced pilot would go to work for a regional and make under $20,000 per year? Not many. Like I said, it's all about the benjamins. If American Eagle decided to pay their captains $200,000 per year, I'd gladly end my career with 'em.

 

[RichardRambone]

What the hell is this airline hiring 200 hour guys? Ive got almost 800 and I havent heard a peep. Granted in the scheme of things I would prefer (all else not considered) to land a 135 twin piston job when I get my 135 mins, then get turboprop PIC time before moving on to the jets. That sounds like a natural progression to me but with 800 hours noones calling me and I feel I have more experience than a typical CFI with my same flight time. For the past year I've dealt with real world IFR flying ferrying airplanes around in all kinds of weather and in airplanes I dont know little about. Its exposed me to handling inflight malfunctions and near emergencies, all outside of a training environment. I defenitely have so much more to learn and experience and in the scheme of things Im a pup but I am more experienced than my number of hours show. Hire me damn you!!

 

[NYCPilot]

I agree that total time is only part of the factor in determining the success of an RJ transition. It is presumed that a higher amount of time consititues more experience, hence, the establishment of flight hour minimums. The normal progression during the accumulation of more flight hours usually entails the movment towards more complex aircraft, procedures, operating rules and weather scenarios. Based on this, we can assume that a greater amount of learning took place through the exposure of a varied flying background, all of which should have encompassed the required fundamentals required to be an effective and capable crewmember or F/O.

This is not necessarily the case. Many times the amount of hours flown does not reflect a vast amount of experience, especially if it's teaching in a 152, demonstrating the same maneuvers over and over again. Granted you learn a lot as a CFI, but after a few hundred hours of instructing, there is only so much that can be learned and tacted on as broadened experience. The ability to succeed and achieve a high learning curve has more to do with the individual. Being sharp and having good, structured training and sound judgment will allow them to demonstrate their competencies faster. A bad 500 hour pilot may very well be a bad 4000 pilot 3500 hours later. TT is not always indicative of being able to perform well. Having aptitude and above average intelligence will make more of a difference along with some pre-existing experience than having a few thousand hours of time.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Having......above average intelligence will make more of a difference.

Uh-oh, I may be in trouble here.......

I'm not sure I ever met an airline pilot that meets the above quote!!!

 

[IHaveAPension]

This is what you get when you hire punks to fly RJ's...

http://community.webshots.com/photo/10445022/181262593CNYBYC

 

[SkyBoy1981]

This is not necessarily the case. Many times the amount of hours flown does not reflect a vast amount of experience, especially if it's teaching in a 152, demonstrating the same maneuvers over and over again. Granted you learn a lot as a CFI, but after a few hundred hours of instructing, there is only so much that can be learned and tacted on as broadened experience.

Exactly...this is why airlines should stop hiring CFI's altogether unless they have a substantial amount of multi time or other flying experience. Requiring pilots to fly frieght or charter for a while prior to getting an airline job will improve the skill and experience level of new hires. Of course, this will never happen because then the airlines would be limited to hiring a group of people that may actually insist on being paid more.

 

[alansmith23]

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