WHY WHY WHY..why R we hiring 210 hr pilots?

[EngineThunder]

Engine Thunder all the more reason not to spend your money on a college flight program. Much cheaper to do it at a Part 61 or 141 flight school in a quick program.

Is there such a thing as a cheap 141 school? I agree with you about Part 61. I went through a small but respectable 141 program and cheap is not the word I would use to describe it.




GO BUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Why is 20K/yr it so bad?, it is an entry level position. After doing it for about 18 months you have a 1000 hrs of 121 TJ MEL SIC time and you can almost immediately double your pay by moving to the cargo side of the business.

Entry level positions:

RJ driver requirements-- PVT, COMM, INST, Medical, background check-- 2years to aquire ratings at a very fast pace + another two years minimum to get competitive times (a low 1000 hours TT)----Pay rate 20k a year.


Meter reader for a gas company-- Be able to drive a car and read english-- Pay rate $27,700 a year. (neighbor just started this week)

Do the two top out differently? Yes.......if the pilot is lucky.

Should a meter reader EVER make more than an airline pilot flying a 20 million dollar airplane? The answer should be obvious.

 

[pilotyip]

Meter Reader?

If you want to be a meter reader by all means go for it. If you are out to make Millions stay out of aviation. Go to a top name college take the hardest courses they have, get into Harvard, Michigan or Sanford's MBA program. Then name your price on what it would take for to work for someone. This has nothing to do with wanting to fly for a living. Flying is still a great career. Where else can a guy without a college degree have a good chance of making $100K yr with 12-16 days off per month by his early 30's. If you really like to fly and are not in it for respect, prestige, $100K to start out, it is a great place to do something you love and be paid for it. Many people only dream about a job like that. There are too many negative vibes on this board. This might tend to discourage a person who thinking about flying as a career. Do not be discouraged, flying is still a great career. I would recommend it to anyone who likes to fly.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Yip,

The point is not that one should become a meter reader if they want to fly. Your contention that an RJ is an entry level job and that 20k is a good pay for this is what I question.

10 years ago I did better than 20k flying first year on a 32 seat turboprop. And even then that was not an entry level job. Entry level for pilots is CFI, and 135 freight and charter.

There should never be a time when 121 on a 60,000 pound jet should be considered entry level or pay as bad as 20k.

Why would anybody feel that an airline pilot flying a 20 mil jet should ever be paid less than a meter reader that does not require one shread of education or training?

The only reason I can think of is that you are mgmt. and are trying to justify why your guys over there get paid so poorly on the 9's and Falcons. Pay scales all over are taking a beating, but come on, 20k for a 50 seat jet? You can get 40k flying a Cirrus for a company. (Yep 40k, got a friend from the FBO doing it, with full benefits too.)

 

[pilotyip]

kero I detech negative vibes, you are going drive away the guys who want to be pilots or make them think you can only be successful as a pilot if you are unhappy.

 

[Towelie]

Where else can a guy without a college degree have a good chance of making $100K yr with 12-16 days off per month by his early 30's.

Whatever, dude. Maybe 5 years ago but not today.

You are an unrealistic moron who needs to quit while he is behind.

Oh, yeah... and stop smoking crack.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

kero I detech negative vibes, you are going drive away the guys who want to be pilots or make them think you can only be successful as a pilot if you are unhappy.

If it only pays 20k now and tops at 60 or 70k.....why would the kids in highschool now even consider spending 60 to 100k+ to learn to fly?

You can be happy being a pilot, but chasing an RJ for 20k in the hopes that one day, if you are lucky you may make it to SWA or UPS is not the way to do it.

By the way, in my state you are eligible for food stamps if you only make 21000 a year.....about 2 grand more than your average RJ new hire.........There is no excuse for that! Garbage truck drivers do much better than that.

 

[ReverseSensing]

...you are going drive away the guys who want to be pilots or make them think you can only be successful as a pilot if you are unhappy.

Did you mean: "You can only be successful in management if you make pilots unhappy"?

Besides, what harm would it do to the profession if we "drive away the guys who want to be pilots"? A scarcity of pilots, and more pilots with high career expectations, would be a blessing to everyone currently employed as a professional pilot.

 

[FreightNazi]

If you want to be a meter reader by all means go for it. If you are out to make Millions stay out of aviation. Go to a top name college take the hardest courses they have, get into Harvard, Michigan or Sanford's MBA program. Then name your price on what it would take for to work for someone. This has nothing to do with wanting to fly for a living. Flying is still a great career. Where else can a guy without a college degree have a good chance of making $100K yr with 12-16 days off per month by his early 30's. If you really like to fly and are not in it for respect, prestige, $100K to start out, it is a great place to do something you love and be paid for it. Many people only dream about a job like that. There are too many negative vibes on this board. This might tend to discourage a person who thinking about flying as a career. Do not be discouraged, flying is still a great career. I would recommend it to anyone who likes to fly.

YIP, would you quit your BS on how unprofitable aviation is. Every 4 yrs. I make a million just on salary alone, not counting A-plan and B-plan. And I've got quite a few years left to retirement. If you stay at a place like USAjet, you will never make millions, but at a select few airlines, it's entirely possible to make seriously big bucks and have a great lifestyle and QOL to go along with it.

One more thing I forgot to add in the above paragraph. When our new contract is finished I should be down to just over 3 years to make a million on salary alone.

 

[VABB]

If you want to be a meter reader by all means go for it. If you are out to make Millions stay out of aviation. Go to a top name college take the hardest courses they have, get into Harvard, Michigan or Sanford's MBA program. Then name your price on what it would take for to work for someone. This has nothing to do with wanting to fly for a living. Flying is still a great career. Where else can a guy without a college degree have a good chance of making $100K yr with 12-16 days off per month by his early 30's. If you really like to fly and are not in it for respect, prestige, $100K to start out, it is a great place to do something you love and be paid for it. Many people only dream about a job like that. There are too many negative vibes on this board. This might tend to discourage a person who thinking about flying as a career. Do not be discouraged, flying is still a great career. I would recommend it to anyone who likes to fly.

YIP, please don't take this the wrong way, but you are an idiot.

First of all, it's STAMFORD not Sanford. Second, having an MBA simply means you have a graduate degree in business administration, it does not translate to an automatic career with an income exceeding $100K/yr. I am willing to bet that MBA grads (with maybe a few, and I emphasize few) from Harvard, Stamford, and Michigan are NOT going into an interview and "naming their price". MBA's are a dime a dozen and most are lucky to land a job at the Tim Horton's at I-94 and Rawsonville road.

Flying is still not a great career. The $100,000/yr with 12-16 days off a year can only be found at a select few carriers, and NONE of them are in YIP. Sure, you can make $100k/yr out of YIP, but you are home 12-16 days out of the YEAR and are probably busting duty-time FAR's in the process.

And by the way, $100K/yr is not a lot of money, unless you live on Green Acres. Do you know how far 100 Grand gets you in the Detroit area? Not too far from Ypsilanti. 10 years ago it was a lot of money, but not today. After taxes, that translates to about $65,000.00 in take-home pay for the year. The average price for a decent house in metro Detroit is just under $200,000.00, and in a decent area. Of course, you could settle for a used fixer-upper in one of the trashy dope-dealing neighborhoods of lovely Belleville. How about a car, going to need one of those too. 401K? Going to have to fund that too, because the last time I checked USA Jet didn't have a roaring pension fund.

YIP, $100,000 in today's dollars is good money, but not great money.

If you really want to fly, do it as a hobby. The majority of the flying jobs available are not even worth going to.

 

[mullet]

First of all, it's STAMFORD not Sanford.

I think he meant Stanford University in Palo Alto, CA.

 

[NYCPilot]

If it makes you happy, do it. The low wages sure haven't kept anyone away. You really can't be in this business and achieve longevity unless you have a sincere passion for it. Period. Money or no money, pilots are willing to fly for the going rate.

 

[MDAutry]

You know I think that PilotYip has several valid points to offer. Aviation is not for the weak hearted, neither is life. For all of the negative post out there and all of the people who say get out of aviation... I say go ahead, get out of aviation you are one less seniority number for the rest of us to deal with. My father has an MBA and Accounting degree from the University of North Carolina and that never stoped him from losing several jobs because a new manager came to his department and fired everyone. A furlough if you will. Life is not easy so quit complaining all the time.

Also, to keep on track with the inital post... Do you Captains out there think that pilots should fly for a small 121, 19 seater before they go to a regional. I think either that or they should fly cargo but then again I am not in the know.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The title of this thread... WHY WHY WHY..why R we hiring 210 hr pilots?

Who is we? Are pilots hiring pilots? Air Line Pilots do not run airlines. Perhaps some of you need to know your place.

As some stated.. supply and demand. Besides, if I had the opportunity to fly a jet with 250 hours sure I would go for it. The major pilots are pissed at the regionals for flying RJs. the RJ pilots are pissed at the CFI for getting hired 'early'. What is wrong with you people?

Instead of trying to cram the way the world works into your narrow mind, why not accept things for what they are.

Grow. Mature. Expand. Elighten. Read. Think.

Now....let's continue...

As a "I am better than you" pilot you are not going to change the dymanics of 250 hour pilots getting jobs. A safety issue? maybe? can you intelligently make the case? I didn't think so. (I did say intelligently).

Low time pilots are blank pages. They know they are low time. They are ready to learn. Teach them. It is a great opportunity to prevent bad habits from ever being started.

Make the best of it..... That last thing we need is stupid pilots mentoring new pilots....

 

[bafanguy]

The title of this thread... WHY WHY WHY..why R we hiring 210 hr pilots?

Who is we? Are pilots hiring pilots? Air Line Pilots do not run airlines. Perhaps some of you need to know your place.

As some stated.. supply and demand. Besides, if I had the opportunity to fly a jet with 250 hours sure I would go for it. The major pilots are pissed at the regionals for flying RJs. the RJ pilots are pissed at the CFI for getting hired 'early'. What is wrong with you people?

Instead of trying to cram the way the world works into your narrow mind, why not accpet things for what they are.

Grow. Mature. Expand. Elighten. Read. Think.

Now....let's continue...

As a "I am better than you" pilot you are not going to change the dymanics of 250 hour pilots getting jobs. A safety issue? maybe? can you intelligently make the case? I didn't think so. (I did say intelligently).

Low time pilots are blank pages. They know they are low time. They are ready to learn. Teach them. It is a great opportunity to prevent bad habits from ever being started.

Make the best of it..... That last thing we need is stupid pilots mentoring new pilots....

...what Rez said...

 

[dingo222]

215 hr pilots

This isn't bait or to piss anyone off. It's just my experience as a CFI today. I'm not a 215 hr pilot. I'm a butt crack away from 135 mins; but it makes me wonder.........


Today I did an insurance checkout at my school for a renter who was an FO at a large regional. He held and ATP multi, several type ratings, and was still CFI current. The checkout went perfect, and was done with no problems. He departed for a wedding shortly after the checkout, with his other FO buddy from the same regional. 5 hrs later my school gets a call from the NTSB that his A/C went down. After tons of lying and ego protecting the verdict came in: FUEL EXHAUSTION.

I'm not the best trained pilot. I'm not the most knowledgeable. I'm not the most experienced. Shoot, I've never even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

I am a 12 yr ARMY NCO, 3 time combat vet, and understand the value of training and experience. I understand that complacency kills. I've buried people because of it.

What I don't understand are these sily jokers on this site that think that they are god almighty because they are a FO on a 170, or are better than any low timer CFI, or that just because someone is less experienced; means they are less knowledgeable.

I have no idea what and EGT is, but i know what best glide in a seminole is; and its fuel endurance. Am I dumb??? Nope, I know my aircraft and I know well enough that I have no clue about anything on whatever jet he flew. Emphasis on Flew.

They both walked, but I'm sure they will never fly again.

Police your own and quit slamming on some of us low timers. We are not all wonder boys, and those of us that are smart will admit it and learn. Train the trainers, or as i used to tell my soldiers, " teach snakes to kill other snakes." WE have to police our own, and weed out all of the crap. Remember, SH*T floats to the top. Get rid of it before it floats.

My 2 cents worth................... if you don't agree, don't spam the board, but own up and pm me.

 

[Freight Dawg]

Dang gon-it PILOT-YIP I was looking to apply to USA JET this spring when my evil "Training Contract" was up, but I have researched you some. I have a college degree, will that hurt my chances? Whats up with the constant degree thing? Dude you flew in the Navy I assume by the aircraft you have listed, you must of had a degree. So why the negativity?

 

[LuckyDad]

There is no substitute for experience... like it or not, it has been proven over and over again. Yes, a 300 hr pilot can manipulate the controls, but the experienced based judgement isn't there.
The majors like JAL and even United in the 60's were not upgrading people as nearly as quickly as in the regionals now. A 16 year upgrade was commonplace, so by the time the upgrade finally came, the experience was there.
Lastly, the regionals are usually viewed as a place to gain experience for Pilots. True enough. Unfortunately, they are also a place for dispatchers, schedulers, mechanics, F/A's and middle level managers to gain experience. All these things combined into one decision making pool is a real bad situation.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Lastly, the regionals are usually viewed as a place to gain experience for Pilots. True enough. Unfortunately, they are also a place for dispatchers, schedulers, mechanics, F/A's and middle level managers to gain experience. All these things combined into one decision making pool is a real bad situation.

You're right....

Back in the days when I was with Eagle based out of DFW, the farthest we flew was ICT. Now the commuters/regionals are flying aircraft that are nearly as big as a DC-9 and stealing the longer routes that only the majors had flown for decades.
You're captain always seems to be some 23 year old Ritalin kid.
Where's your experience? Im not saying these guys are not capable of physically piloting the aircraft from point A to point B and some of them, I'm sure, know the systems extremely well and are very "book smart", but again where's the experience level? I guess a perfect example of these punks doing stupid things and making poor decisions was when they took a Pinnacle CRJ up to the maximum altitude to 'have a little fun"...we all know what happened next. It's a given, that about every other flight that I deadhead on nowadays is a barbie jet. The regionals are slowly pushing the majors out.

 

[pilotyip]

Dawg stuff

Dang gon-it PILOT-YIP I was looking to apply to USA JET this spring when my evil "Training Contract" was up, but I have researched you some. I have a college degree, will that hurt my chances? Whats up with the constant degree thing? Dude you flew in the Navy I assume by the aircraft you have listed, you must of had a degree. So why the negativity?

No negativity only a personal opinion. I feel you get a better start on a flying career by flying airplanes, not sitting in a classroom. Having a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane, it may be fun to get, it may make you smarter, it may give you the basis for a different career. But why would you want that if you want a flying career? At USA jet most of the pilots we hire have a college degrees, because almost everyone has one. But it does not enter into our hiring decision at all.

 

[pilotkppsg]

Hey pilotyip, did you really fly the Flying Fortress? If so how'd you swing that and what was it like. I saw Aluminum Overcast a few days ago in Ohio.

 

[pilotyip]

B-17 Awesome!!

Yea on the B-17 is awesome, just got done to a tower fly by at DTW for a retiring ATC Controller. How did I get to fly the B-17? I started flying the C-47, 20 years ago for the Yankee Air Museum, hung around cleaned offices, and bused tables at pancake B'fasts, washed airplanes, worked on event committees. I got noticed, never complained and two years ago I was invited to become the Director of Flight Operations for the Yankee Air Museum, and asked to become qualifed in the B-17. It is a big old airplane where nothing happens in a hurry, it is almost so stable that it is hard to make last minute large corrections. It does not respond to power changes, so being stable well before you arrive over the runway is the key to getting on the ground. Power off near stall landing is the way to get it on the ground, over wise it to wants to porpoise if you make wheel landings. On take off you have to use differential power to make it go straight until the rudder becomes effective, which will depend upon what the crosswind is doing. It is a fantasy for me because I was raised on the stories of B-17 crewmembers. I know I am truly lucky and give thanks every time I get a change to fly our B-17. And "I can not resist" In W.W.II you did not need a college degree to fly the B-17, and I think those were pretty capable pilots.

 

[pilotkppsg]

That's cool, i've always wanted to fly one of those, my grandad was a ball gunner in the ETO. I've got a bunch of old bomber flight gear in my house and I thought about dropping the 400 bones to fly on Alumin. Overcast, but I wanna sit up front, not at the waist.

 

[fastbird]

Big difference in the military....it's working for the GOV'T and you're signed up for a lengthy training CONTRACT. Plus, the pay rates are set by DoD and Congress not some whipsaw minded CEO. Huge difference.

There's an article in the WSJ..."Weak Unions enable Corporations to seek Big Concessions." How are they able to do that?

It's because some snot nose brat is willing to work for less just so he be an airline pilot. Or, it's an old fart who only wants to be a pilot and will take what ever job he can get as long as it's flying an airlplane.

The old fart's position can be rationalized. But, every new idiot who comes into the business with that SJS mentality is weakening the status of career field. We're descending to the rates of bus drivers and we're loosing the "Glorified" moniker in the process.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Any flying organization, but especially large, public ones like an airline, want to get the best qualified pilots that will it into their organizational culture. So, the reason that U R hiring 210 hour pilots is that you can't get 3000 hr. pilots, and the 210 ones are the best qualified ones that will work in your organization.

Things will only be getting worse over the next 5-15 years, unless something unexpected happens with the oil situation.

Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier, Gulfstream, Cessna, Beechcraft, and all the VLJ cos. had about their best years ever last year. The number of new airframes coming online is staggering. NASA predicts 20K light jets by 2020.

The pool of pilots is stable, so with these upcoming new aircraft, there will once again be a "shortage", probably unlike any we have seen before.

It seems like a crappy situation for us now, but it will be improving soon. One example of this is the big raise given to the NetJets pilots. We arent' seeing it in the airlines too much yet, but it's coming.

Good luck!

Cliff
ABY

 

[IFlyFL410]

ABX Air has 250 hr pilots in the right seat of their 767's.

I seriously doubt that.

 

[Ty Webb]

ABX Air has 250 hr pilots in the right seat of their 767's.

No, they don't. They have pilots furloughed, and the most junior CA has been there for 11 years . . . . nice try, though.

And if you really think that 215 hour pilots are "Hired because they demonstrated they can handle it", then you need to post again when (if?) you get out of flight school and into the real world, Sport.

Looks like you're having a tough time even "handling" the message board.:laugh:

 

[YourPilotFriend]

If training is done properly, you can hire zero time guys right out of high school.

 

[Ty Webb]

If training is done properly, you can hire zero time guys right out of high school.

Hah. If this was true, NWA would be recruiting your replacements right now at your local high school, Chief.

But if you really believe it, hey, more power to you, but the days of "God in the left seat, assisted by Radio Boy in the right seat" has long since passed, and for good reason.

 

[urflyingme?!]

"Our students get hired at Mesa"... I don't think there's any guarentees, at least the Gulfstream guys get real experience whether it's a 1900 or not.

tell the 1900 guys from Gulfstream who payed to sit in that seat to come fly an approach to mins in the dead of winter at ohare....then they can say they have expirience.

12 out of my class of 13 got hired. One guy didn't, and there were a few supporting reasons why he didn't.

As for your approach to mins in Ohare, I think I can handle a 35 mile straight in, thank you.