WHY WHY WHY..why R we hiring 210 hr pilots?

[RJP]

There are pilots with 400 hours that can handle flying a jet. Most pilots that went throught military training should be able to handle it. I'm sure there are quite a few civilian trained pilots that would be able to handle it too.

Sure, there are some civilian-trained pilots who could handle a jet.....if they got their PPL and went to millitary pilot training!

 

[Goose Egg]

AMRAAM -- Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile

Yeah, but what's a "lauch?"

 

[pilotyip]

There is a pilot shortage coming, so airlines are redefining competitive minimums. This leads up to the hiring boom of June 2007

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

dude...hate to burst your bubble but they have all done it...yup you heard it...might not be public but most, if not all regionals have. ASA, Xpressjet, Eagle, Comair, ACA(used to), and all the pay for training carriers...you guys might not believe me, but they have all done it. I know for a fact, there are published mins...and then there are the other mins...in fact...believe it or not...at an undisclosed regional, the guys that busted training where never the low timers...the difference was they had to come from a structured program...like riddle, purdue, flight safety, etc...this is not a new concept guys...they have been at it for years now.

not to add fuel to the fire...but say you take the top 5% of purdue and riddle grads...with their 200 hours and put them in a jet...isn't that the same as a company like Microsoft taking the top 5% of MIT grads and putting them in charge? Or the Air Force commisioning the top students from the Air Force Academy and giving them flight slots? Guys flight time is important...but attitude and judgement is what kills you in an airplane...especially when its structured training. I am in the left seat of a CRJ...and the guys that scare me are not the 200, 300, 500, 900 hour guys...the ones that scare me are the cocky bastards that think they are chuck yeager with 100 hours or 10000 hours

The 800 to 1000 hour F/O's that I had WERE from Purdue and Riddle.....The early first wave of this trend. They could barely handle a 31000 pound Turboprop on a good day. They were severly lacking in any kind of real world judgment and IFR experience. Common errors on a good weather day included procedure errors in the IFR system, forgetting or missetting altimeters, altitude busts (at least tried to), couldn't interpret a radar picture, would call for flaps and gear way above placard speeds, couldn't figure out how to enter holds on the fly, would attempt to intercept a false localizer needle, missed or misinterpreted radio calls on a regular basis, misread performance charts and W/B figures and come up with bad numbers (off enough to kill you), would call completed checklists while the packs remained off and the A/C unpressurized. Etc.

The list goes on, everybody makes mistakes, but unless things have changed drastically in the last few years the Captain is having to do the job of both pilots, I know we were when we had our group of the "Program" newhires.

Safety suffered because of it.

 

[L.Skywalker]

Otto, I readily admit that interviews are not my strong point, other than that no faults as to record or otherwise. Thanks for the words and I'll get to airlineapps.com for Mesa right away.

Thanks Again!

 

[BoilerUP]

Kerosene,

I would like to think many pilots coming out of those programs you mentioned today have learned from the problems of those more arrogant that have come before them. You've been there and done that in the past, and although the programs you mentioned are excellent, there are some people coming out of my program that I personally don't think have the skills, knowledge or experience to do well, while others I would be completely comfortable with. Admittedly, they have a steeper learning curve than those with 135 experience, but a positive attitude and eager willingness to learn go a long way in mitigating that problem. What you describe is a complete and total lack of situation awareness, and is inexcusable in a 121 environment.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Kerosene,

I would like to think many pilots coming out of those programs you mentioned today have learned from the problems of those more arrogant that have come before them. You've been there and done that in the past, and although the programs you mentioned are excellent, there are some people coming out of my program that I personally don't think have the skills, knowledge or experience to do well, while others I would be completely comfortable with. Admittedly, they have a steeper learning curve than those with 135 experience, but a positive attitude and eager willingness to learn go a long way in mitigating that problem. What you describe is a complete and total lack of situation awareness, and is inexcusable in a 121 environment.

I hope that the problems have been corrected. We had 1 of that group that was excellent. However, he was the only one of the group that had any real experience, he had flown a Baron in corporate work on the weekends while flight instructing at his university during the week. There is no substitute for real world flying. The rest had at most 100 to 200 hours of multi time, all as an MEI. That first winter in the north east with these folks was very interesting to say the least. Let me tell you there is nothing that will get your attention more than a 200 1/2 approach in blowing snow being flown by a guy that still thought a Seminole was fast!

 

[Big Dog]

Think of it in terms of legalities...

At the bare minimum, in the unfortunate situatation that the captain becomes unable to perform their duties, the FO should be able to LEGALLY PIC the A/C, minimum ATP & Type Rating in Part 121.

 

[CA1900]

This will continue as long as RJ's aren't falling out of the sky.

If you'll recall last October, a CRJ did exactly that. The FO had 761 hours of total time, 222 of them in the CRJ. By my math, that means he was hired with 539 hours, and that was after his 250-hour stint at Gulfstream.

Anyone can fly them.

Well, I hate to speak ill of the dead, but clearly not.

 

[FN FAL]

So a guy with 800 hours in a 172 is more qualified than the guy with 200 hours in the same type of airplane?

Define more qualified? The regs set the minimum qualifications for who can hold the right seat, there is no MORE QUALIFIED definition by the FAA.

 

[FN FAL]

I think an ATP should be a minimum requirement fornew hires .

Hmmmm...yea, lets pay for what the airlines are supposed to give us...why not make the type a requirement? And for airlines with two types, make sure to require that the applicant has both.

 

[puddlejumper101]

The 800 to 1000 hour F/O's that I had WERE from Purdue and Riddle.....The early first wave of this trend. They could barely handle a 31000 pound Turboprop on a good day. They were severly lacking in any kind of real world judgment and IFR experience. Common errors on a good weather day included procedure errors in the IFR system, forgetting or missetting altimeters, altitude busts (at least tried to), couldn't interpret a radar picture, would call for flaps and gear way above placard speeds, couldn't figure out how to enter holds on the fly, would attempt to intercept a false localizer needle, missed or misinterpreted radio calls on a regular basis, misread performance charts and W/B figures and come up with bad numbers (off enough to kill you), would call completed checklists while the packs remained off and the A/C unpressurized. Etc.

The list goes on, everybody makes mistakes, but unless things have changed drastically in the last few years the Captain is having to do the job of both pilots, I know we were when we had our group of the "Program" newhires.

Safety suffered because of it.

i know that happens...i have been in your shoes too...babysitting fo's...but honestly, I have seen that gap in both guys and gals with tons of hours too. What it comes down to is this. I have noticed that the new hires that have no 121 or turbine experience for the most part have a steeper learning curve than the guys that have had previous airline or turbine experience. I have seen it in guys going from a Brasilia to a CRJ both left and right seat...new environment, new airplane will cause new problems for most of us. The difference is once you have played the 121 game...you kinda know what to expect in training. All I can say is this, if you are going to hire low time guys, just make sure they are sharp...well let me rephrase that...all new hires should be sharp. A sharp 200 hour pilot from a structured program will do ok...I have seen it. We all have growing pains...but I still think attitude, knowledge, and judgement is more important than 200, 2000, or 20000 hours. What we do isn't rocket science...you just need the right mind set to do it well. When a guy screws up and he has 5000 hours we don't think twice about the flight time...when the pilot only has 500 hours, we immediatly blame it on lack of experience. We all screw up...at some point or another.

 

[Goose Egg]

What we do isn't rocket science...you just need the right mind set to do it well.

That's the truth.

-Goose

 

[Midnight Flyer]

what regionals are hiring people with just over 200 hours?
Why????? I just can't comprehend.

Easy. It's all about money. Regionals don't pay crap, so they are forced to hire pilots willing to work for pennies. The only pilots willing to work for pennies are pilots with little or no experience. What experienced pilot would go to work for a regional and make under $20,000 per year? Not many. Like I said, it's all about the benjamins. If American Eagle decided to pay their captains $200,000 per year, I'd gladly end my career with 'em.

 

[RichardRambone]

What the hell is this airline hiring 200 hour guys? Ive got almost 800 and I havent heard a peep. Granted in the scheme of things I would prefer (all else not considered) to land a 135 twin piston job when I get my 135 mins, then get turboprop PIC time before moving on to the jets. That sounds like a natural progression to me but with 800 hours noones calling me and I feel I have more experience than a typical CFI with my same flight time. For the past year I've dealt with real world IFR flying ferrying airplanes around in all kinds of weather and in airplanes I dont know little about. Its exposed me to handling inflight malfunctions and near emergencies, all outside of a training environment. I defenitely have so much more to learn and experience and in the scheme of things Im a pup but I am more experienced than my number of hours show. Hire me damn you!!

 

[NYCPilot]

I agree that total time is only part of the factor in determining the success of an RJ transition. It is presumed that a higher amount of time consititues more experience, hence, the establishment of flight hour minimums. The normal progression during the accumulation of more flight hours usually entails the movment towards more complex aircraft, procedures, operating rules and weather scenarios. Based on this, we can assume that a greater amount of learning took place through the exposure of a varied flying background, all of which should have encompassed the required fundamentals required to be an effective and capable crewmember or F/O.

This is not necessarily the case. Many times the amount of hours flown does not reflect a vast amount of experience, especially if it's teaching in a 152, demonstrating the same maneuvers over and over again. Granted you learn a lot as a CFI, but after a few hundred hours of instructing, there is only so much that can be learned and tacted on as broadened experience. The ability to succeed and achieve a high learning curve has more to do with the individual. Being sharp and having good, structured training and sound judgment will allow them to demonstrate their competencies faster. A bad 500 hour pilot may very well be a bad 4000 pilot 3500 hours later. TT is not always indicative of being able to perform well. Having aptitude and above average intelligence will make more of a difference along with some pre-existing experience than having a few thousand hours of time.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Having......above average intelligence will make more of a difference.

Uh-oh, I may be in trouble here.......

I'm not sure I ever met an airline pilot that meets the above quote!!!

 

[IHaveAPension]

This is what you get when you hire punks to fly RJ's...

http://community.webshots.com/photo/10445022/181262593CNYBYC

 

[SkyBoy1981]

This is not necessarily the case. Many times the amount of hours flown does not reflect a vast amount of experience, especially if it's teaching in a 152, demonstrating the same maneuvers over and over again. Granted you learn a lot as a CFI, but after a few hundred hours of instructing, there is only so much that can be learned and tacted on as broadened experience.

Exactly...this is why airlines should stop hiring CFI's altogether unless they have a substantial amount of multi time or other flying experience. Requiring pilots to fly frieght or charter for a while prior to getting an airline job will improve the skill and experience level of new hires. Of course, this will never happen because then the airlines would be limited to hiring a group of people that may actually insist on being paid more.

 

[alansmith23]

adfsdf

 

[bafanguy]

This issue of pilot training/experience vs suitability for airline hiring is interesting and important. It has come up several times and is worth "discussing". The original comment launching this thread related to airline hiring and, as that's the only experience I have, I'll try confining myself to that. 100% of my career is behind me...0% ahead so maybe I can give a look-back perspective. If my opinion isn't to your liking, at least you didn't spend much getting it so, no sweat. Nothing personal from my end.

This is an issue where it seems hard to have a rational, non-judgemental discussion based on calm assessment rather than histrionics. When you see comments about adding extra fuel due to a low-time FO, not putting one's family on board, incapacitated captain, or detailing a list of errors made by a lowtimer, you might be up against a mindset precluding any meaningful debate. I'll try to avoid as much of that as possible as the debate is worth the effort.

With the above said, two overall things come to mind. The first is unrelated to the issue of suitability for hiring, but I can't help myself. I'd guess most carriers would prefer hiring the 2000hr pilot ? If they're hiring 200hr people, perhaps the supply of willing 2000hr guys is below the demand to fill cockpit seats ? Pilots don't set hiring policy and don't affect the situation beyond just refusing to be an applicant in the first place. Perhaps what's happened is the 2000hr guys got better deals leaving the jobs open for the 200 hr guys. The seats WILL be filled, with the only variable being by whom. It's unlikely there's a shortage of 2000+hr pilots. Just a thought, and definitely an aside, making NO effort to address the quality of the job itself. That's another issue.

Second is the meat of it all. I've noticed a couple of people with high avatar flight time (>10,000) who don't seem to have a problem with lowtimers and I'm getting ready to agree.

Learning any complicated task is a matter of a willing, apt student and an experienced, dedicated, knowledgeable instructor tied together by a thorough, properly-administered syllabus demanding a high level of demonstrated performance from both. This same thing applies to both a training program AND life on the line after training. You can find this at work in the military ( the Gold Standard ) and many civilian organizations.

The training world, with its inherent limitations, we all understand. Post training world is the organization for whom one flies and the part at issue here. The student becomes a FO, the instructor is now the captain ( yes, that's part of your job, mentoring the next generation of captains whether you, or they, like it or not ), and the syllabus is the company flt ops dept with all its policy, procedure, and demand for proper conduct/judgement/performance/accountability from everyone. This last part is the foundation of practically everything else.

So, I see no reason why a lowtimer, properly trained, operating in an environment of a professional dept, working with experienced, knowledgeable captains, willing to share their experience/teach by example(if nothing else), can't be just fine in an airline job. One learns to be the captain by being the FO; sorry, that's just the way it is. If one entered indoc feeling he had all he needed and was just there to fill in a few details, that's the guy I'd worry about regardless of his experience. Can't upgrade lowtimers fast enough ? That's not your problem; the suits will deal with that. The issue is the suitability of a lowtimer to function within the system. Will he make mistakes ? You bet...you did and so did I; using that as a reason to pronounce a pilot unsuitable just won't fly.

Regardless, since everyone gets experience one hour at a time, the issue becomes where, under what circumstances, and with what result. Nobody is born knowing this stuff; it's learned, with the idea being to avoid paying too dear a price for the knowledge. The lowtimer, under the right conditions, can be very well suited to step into airline flying. This has been proven for decades by a number of established airlines.

You just may have to step up and be a part of making it work, Captain...someone did it for you.

 

[pilotyip]

skyboy, that is exactly what is happening. People with more experience will not work for those wages. Therefore, the airlines have redefined competitive minimums, and the CFI falls right into those new minimums. Adam Smith figured this out in 1790.

 

[Salty Pirate]

The only thing that I've noticed to be consistant with the low timer threads is the only ones that make the argument that a 200 hrs guy is ready, is the 200 hrs guy. How the hell do know if you are ready of not. Every captain, unless of course they started at a regional with 200 hrs knows all to well that you guys can't find your a$$ with both hands in the dark. The 200 hrs dudes defend their position out of the insecurity they feel because they only have 200 freaking hours. Grow up, quit trying to cut corners, and get off mommy's nipple some where else other than the 121 environment------freaking tools. You sound like whiney a$$ luke crying to yoda, I'm ready,----I really am waaahhhhhhhhhhhh. Thats why you clowns are all willing to work for free, or pay for training because deep
down inside you know your skills are in the toilet.

I know I can't type or spell so don't use that as a defense to this thread. That is another low timer trick. Pick apart the spelling and grammar because you have no other rebuttal.

 

[finnjl]

just my two cents....I flight instructed for about 700 hours or so and I knew a lot of book stuff and was pretty proficient. I really learned how to fly when I flew freight for AirNet Express. I think night freight, single pilot IFR in busy airports dealing with all types of weather is experience you can not get anywhere else even regional airline flying. I found ATR and RJ flying easy after flying for AirNet. The captains I flew with appreciated my compentance and some even said it was nice to fly with an FO that knew what he was doing. Glad I did it as I am a better pilot today.

 

[Salty Pirate]

When did FO become a student position. I agree that you learn to be a captain as an FO but we have people learning to fly as an FO. The FO's job is to back the captain up and offer a second opinion in decision making and that just isn't possible at 200 hrs.

 

[601Pilot]

What the hell is this airline hiring 200 hour guys? Ive got almost 800 and I havent heard a peep. Granted in the scheme of things I would prefer (all else not considered) to land a 135 twin piston job when I get my 135 mins, then get turboprop PIC time before moving on to the jets. That sounds like a natural progression to me but with 800 hours noones calling me and I feel I have more experience than a typical CFI with my same flight time. For the past year I've dealt with real world IFR flying ferrying airplanes around in all kinds of weather and in airplanes I dont know little about. Its exposed me to handling inflight malfunctions and near emergencies, all outside of a training environment. I defenitely have so much more to learn and experience and in the scheme of things Im a pup but I am more experienced than my number of hours show. Hire me dang you!!

Send your stuff to ASA; we are taking anyone with a heartbeat at the moment.
I heard we hired someone with 180 hours, but I have yet to verify that. I
assume he was Part 141.

 

[Salty Pirate]

just my two cents....I flight instructed for about 700 hours or so and I knew a lot of book stuff and was pretty proficient. I really learned how to fly when I flew freight for AirNet Express. I think night freight, single pilot IFR in busy airports dealing with all types of weather is experience you can not get anywhere else even regional airline flying. I found ATR and RJ flying easy after flying for AirNet. The captains I flew with appreciated my compentance and some even said it was nice to fly with an FO that knew what he was doing. Glad I did it as I am a better pilot today.

Amen

make your trial and error mistakes with boxes in the back. That's what I did. The airline flying is an absolute joke compared to night freight. You need to scare the crap out of yourself so you know what it feels like then you won't do it with grandma and gramps in the back.

 

[bafanguy]

When did FO become a student position. I agree that you learn to be a captain as an FO but we have people learning to fly as an FO. The FO's job is to back the captain up and offer a second opinion in decision making and that just isn't possible at 200 hrs.

Well, 200 hours isn't a permanent condition. And, one learns his whole career or shouldn't be there. At some points the learning curve is steeper than others.

 

[BoilerUP]

Last I checked (in a recently former life I was a 141 Check Instructor) it took 190 hours ABSOLUTELY BARE MINIMUM to get a Commercial ticket in a 141 program.

Everybody keeps talking about "this airline" hiring 200hr wonders. WHO IS THIS AIRLINE? My best guess is there is no such airline, as the lowest I've heard of recently is MAPD taking San Juaners around 300tt that have been groomed for the plane they are flying (CRJ or Beech).

 

[NYCPilot]

You guys act like it takes a triple PhD in Physics, geometry, and engineering to even taxi a plane. I got plenty of hours flying all sorts of Jets with assorted liveries on MS flight simulator. I don't need more than a wet Comm./ME/IFR to get passengers from point A to B. I'll let that poor captain make all of the decisions while I run around town in my nifty pilot uniform telling everyone what airline I work for. Between bedding hot babes I'll create a kick ass website and blog announcing even further to the world of my inflated ego that I AM AN AIRLINE PILOT. It'll contain such neat pictures of me posing in and around a shiney new jet that I fly for illegal immigrant wages.

So to hell with risking my tail flying cancelled checks around during inclement weather, thats for guys who have a death wish. Just give me my airconditioned jet cabin and a really competent captain who will save my ass along with all those poor souls on board should shoot hit the fan.

Thanks.

(I'm being fecetious for those feeling a bit serious and livid)