WHY WHY WHY..why R we hiring 210 hr pilots?

[DashCojones]

So if 500 hours makes me a danger around a jet, and 1000 hours makes me okay, and 1500 makes me qualfied to chuck gear, at what point do I become experienced and qualfied enough to become a jet captain? Hours *should* be moot when experience is a much better indicator of piloting ability.

Lets take your average 1200hr CFI. They probably have their COM-ASMEL and CFI-IA and 800 or more dual given, with probably only 20-30 hours of multi time because their school doesnt have one and they couldn't afford to buy more. Most of their time is VFR instruction in a Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee.

Now lets take somebody with 600 hours and a CFI with 200 dual given. They have knowledge of transport aircraft systems and extensive experience in transport aircraft simulators, lots of time IFR in the system, maybe 50-100 multi and might have flown turbine aircraft or two into the flight levels (albeit under the close eye of an experienced captain).

Ignore their total time and look at each person's experience. Which one of these pilots is more likely to succeed in an airline's training program? Which one would you want shooting an approach down to minimums if the captain becomes incapacitated? Which one is going to make the better captain once they upgrade?

Each person's skill set is different; airlines (and to a higher degree, insurance companies) should not use an arbitrary number when trying to assess a pilot's risk or ability.

wonderful point BUT...how much of this "quality" time will you find in a 200 hour wonder? I'll bet the house that it's no more than.....200 hours. No freakin' way I'd let the family on an RJ knowing that they're a heartbeat away from their plane being commanded by a 200-hour kid.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

wonderful point BUT...how much of this "quality" time will you find in a 200 hour wonder? I'll bet the house that it's no more than.....200 hours. No freakin' way I'd let the family on an RJ knowing that they're a heartbeat away from their plane being commanded by a 200-hour kid.

Good point, God forbid the Captain become incapacitated.

 

[BoilerUP]

My point is that at 215 hours this person has ZERO experience outside of a training envionment.

On that point, I completely agree...there's NO way to, as that is barely over the Part 141 requirements for a commercial multi! The 600hr pilot I described is FAR different than anybody below 250tt in a US training environment.

 

[Cardinal]

Any lowtime monkey can be taught aircraft systems and how to make the plane fly down the glideslope. What gets me are the newhires that have no real experience/clue in the IFR system. Examples:

What does a controller need to hear on your initial call? NOT your whole life story.

What does "Hold for Release" mean?

Clearance Anxiety: If you're on a vector, you're on a vector, don't worry about it.

"Cleared for the visual" does not mean "clear of terrain." I've seen three instances where the new guy set off the Ground Prox because he plummeted towards the field elevation miles from the airport (at night!) I had the terrain in sight, hoping they'd learn some lesson. Apparently not: next night, same place, same descent, GPWS activates for the same rock!

Never rush things, but at least discern when things need to be done in a timely manner. Me, the ramper, and a whole boatload of pax cannot do a single thing until you complete the After Start checklist, so let's git'r done!

I'd go on, but why?

 

[808pilot]

i like what boilerup had to say...good points.....
so here is another scenario.....
military guys some out of basic flight training with roughly the same amount of time (250-300)...having only been in a flight training enviroment....then they head off to training for their type of aircraft (ie. kc-135, 130's, c-17, blah blah).....again they are highy supervised in a contained environment....when all is said and done they graduate and go stright to their unit with roughly 350hrs of flight time.....now, i know how good the military is and their training is the best in the world, but if people are going to compare pilots based on their flight time as a way to gauge experience seems to me that military and non are in the same boat.....
if a person can handle the work load and get the job done whats the difference? the gov't approved them to fly (although thats another issue.....ugghhhh), they have jumped all the hurdles.....
however, i find it hard to believe that there are companies out there that will pick up the 215 hr pilot......
one more thing....this whole SJS issue(i'm in a turboprop so i guess i don't follow).....what are the guys that go into the military referred to as for going into a jet with 350-400hrs? they have the same dream as the rest of us that got into the industry....whatever, this $hit is fun to read and it makes me look busy around my lady.....

 

[PSAChiefPilots]

Let me guess MESA through SJCC?
I think it's a selling point for the CC's programs, We'll take your money and if we like you, we'll hire you... I guess the old Comair Training Academy could've done the same thing but not aware if they did or not.

Think about it with this twist, isn't this the same thing Gulfstream training academy does...You go to our Training academy and we'll give you an airline job. I know here comes the PFT haters, But with an open mind, similar concepts

"Our students get hired at Mesa"... I don't think there's any guarentees, at least the Gulfstream guys get real experience whether it's a 1900 or not.

I do not know of anyone else doing it?
I had to stick my neck out for 600 hours and 100 me and it has nothing to do with Insurance! When everyone else is doing it, you have to do it or get left behind. When we where looking for 1500 and 250, we were getting 25% of the Apps we get now. The nature of the Beast I guess

Good Luck to all those Captains, now you know why you get those "Big Bucks"

PSACPSP

I know it's a repeated thread. I don't want to offend anybody. This is not a flame bait. I just don't get it and I am almost feeling depressed. Why are we hiring people with 215 hours? I don't care who you are, you can only do so much with 215 hours of experience. I don't care if it was the greatest flight school. I don't care if you have a type rating. Why do regionals hire people with so little hours? Someone help me understand this. Are we ready to fly with a person who has 215 total hours in the middle of winter in the mid west? ERI? LGA? DCA? ?? If you have, how was that? Is it really safe? really? I think it's extremely unsafe. This is nothing personal towards people with that kind of hours, but I certainly feel that if you are that person, you don't belong in the right seat of an RJ. I am sorry.

-what regionals are hiring people with just over 200 hours? Why????? I just can't comprehend.

 

[Goose Egg]

Now lets take somebody with 600 hours and a CFI with 200 dual given. They have knowledge of transport aircraft systems and extensive experience in transport aircraft simulators, lots of time IFR in the system, maybe 50-100 multi and might have flown turbine aircraft or two into the flight levels (albeit under the close eye of an experienced captain).

Those are almost my exact times and I don't have any of that sh#t. I don't know how you are supposed to get any of that with only 600 TT. I mean, I don't worry that I will get that kind of experience eventually, but all in good time, right? Give me some time to cut my teeth, for cryin' out loud! I barely know what I'm doing as it is!

-Goose

 

[NYCPilot]

It's all economics.

The bottom line is that if they hire a low timer, chances are he will be with the company for a longer period of time, thus effectively decreasing attrition rates and training costs. The low time F/O has a longer time to upgrade to captain, and the captain once logging PIC will have a longer time in the right seat as well, while he logs his coveted turbine PIC.

Airlines are acutely aware that the PIC usually has things well under control 90% of the time. They usually have many hours and plenty of experience with various weather and equipment malfunction scenarios. It is fair to even say that they are more than capable of flying the jet all on their own. Before assuming the position of a captain in an RJ, they have also proved themselves capable of that position and responsibility. The RJ's that are being flown by these captains who are paired up with "low timers" are very user-friendly and made to fly easily, to the point of being flown by themselves. The systems are designed to make the job of piloting almost non-existent. The massive amount of regulations, SOP standardizations, routine routes, etc. make this type of operation fairly safe. These are the odds that these airlines hedge.

To be fair, there aren't as many 500 hr pilots being hired to begin with. Most have a minimum of 1000 hrs. and usually much more along with a decent amount of multi time. The ones that have less TT and ME usually are the ones who come from some sort of structured training outfit and even then, they are usually sharp individuals. If one can make it past an interview, sim ride, training, IOE, etc. successfully, then they have met the minimum qualifications. They then can meet that 10% gap.

Now it is true that they have to be baby-sat to an extent. Every new co-pilot does. Some will be quick learners and others will be require more patience. Every flight they embark on will increase their knowledge and experience incrementally, until they themselves have acquired the aforementioned requisite qualities and characteristics of those that have mentored them over the last few years.

It is fair to say that after a couple of years in the right seat, these low-timers, are no longer that and have become more of an equal in terms of being a crewmember.

Yes, things go wrong on occasion, and maybe there are isolated incidents in where the F/O was not much help or perhaps more of a hindrance, but these occurrences are very rare, and the airlines know this.

Some of you may recall the history of a vehicle called the Ford Pinto. This was an instance where a corporation felt it was more economically feasible to pay out in fatality lawsuits than to recall a vehicle that needed a 10 cent part retrofitted. Back in the 70's when Japanese cars flooded the market, Ford needed to answer this with a low-weight, low-cost version of the popular Toyotas and Hondas. It needed to be a certain price and certain weight. They rushed the design and production of this vehicle into the marketplace, only to realize after the assembly lines had been built that there was a minor flaw. The gas tank sat too close to the bumper and when this car was rear-end in an accident, it would not only trap the occupants, but caused an immediate explosion, burning the victims inside.

Ford knew of this problem, but their actuaries calculated that it would be much cheaper to wait for an accident to occur where someone was charred and might have had the impetus to sue. If they lost, or settled, it would cost them a lot less than to have each vehicle retrofitted for a part costing a mere few cents during a callback.

 

[sleddriver77]

If you are trained as a regional jet FO from day one, that is, taught to do things by "the book," led by the hand, etc. you will probably do OK as a regional FO with an ink-still-not-dry commercial. As far as twin time goes, IMHO all the twin time in the world don't mean a thing until one engine sh!ts the bed. As someone previously posted, foreign carriers seem to do OK by hiring NONPILOTS off the street, giving them a few aptitude tests, sending them to a "jet pilot factory" flight school, and tossing them in the airplane. Of course, the upgrade times are long enough there, they actually gain some experience before that time comes.

When I signed on at my current regional, I had about 5500 hours more total time than my sim partner. He was a lower time guy who was pretty much groomed to be a regional pilot. We performed equally sh!tty in the sim. I was "groomed" to be (well, I was never really groomed, I guess) more of a seat of the pants guy, and for the most part, that type of thing doesn't work in this environment.

It all worked out in the end, right?

 

[Captain X]

I see. What's an "amram lauch?"

-Goose

AMRAAM -- Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile