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Why Shouldn't I PFT!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Los
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P-F-T quals

blade230 said:
Also, it is widely agreed upon, moral issues and personal feelings asside, some PFT pilots are good sticks. How are these guys unqualified?
They may meet FAA regulatory qualifications to be in the right seat of an airline cockpit, but they may not meet some of the experience and most of the longevity requirements to be airline pilots. There are plenty of people who are great pilots, but they have not been around long enough to be good airline pilots.

I will not bring up P-F-T companies where they are put into the right seat at 250 hours or 500 hours thereafter, and let's not compare them to foreign airline training. As you are well aware, foreign airlines place many 300-hour pilots in right seats of DC-9s and 737s. However, these pilots have been hand-picked to become pilots and receive extremely high-quality, intense training from their company school and/or a high-quality contractor. Not a moment is wasted. Compare it to military pilot training. These folks are extremely well-prepared to be airline pilots at 300 hours. Not the same as P-F-Ters.
 
This guy bought 800 hours of time and has instructed just 200 hours or so. I've built almost 300 hrs in the last 5 months instructing at 2 jobs - on in NJ and one in FL. It seems his lack of patience is what is killing his chances! He doesn't seem very serious in finding flight jobs.

Might be mean but I see it as one less person in line for my next job.

~wheelsup
 
pft

Los,
If you've got any inclination for corporate aviation and you have money burning a hole in your pocket-get your Airframe and Powerplant Cert. (instruct while doing it). After you build some hours instructing, you'll be a shoe-in for a sweet corporate job.

If you don't want that, go to a part 141 flight school where they have more students than they can accommodate (like some university programs). You can build 800-1000 hours instructing in a year at some programs. It's not PFT, and it can be a living- not just subsistence.

Get a Citation type from all ATPs and make contacts with corporate types who have citations-they may need a co-pilot in a pinch.

I know a CFI who started his own aerial advertising company. He got investors, bought a plane, has clients, and is about to start making money.

There is a lot you can do without pft. "Think outside of the box."

Where do you live? Maybe move someplace where aviation is more abundant-more opportunities exist where there is more activity.

The bottom line is that you're going to pay one way or another. You should keep your money and get valuable experience along the way. Who knows, you might make a way for the next guy-so he won't have to pft.

Do you really think you are the only person who finds advancement in this profession intolerable? Don't forget, others have been exactly where you are and they made it without pft.
If you take the easy way, you'll never know what you can do.

Remember, if being an aviator was easy-there'd be no doctors or lawyers.
 
blade230 said:
Hey enigma, I got a question for you,

how can you say that the many pilots that PFT'd in the 90's, ALL were unqualified? Many that PFT'd had several thousand hours. Some more than you, I'm sure. Just a question about what you are stating, not a PFT question. Also, it is widely agreed upon, moral issues and personal feelings asside, some PFT pilots are good sticks. How are these guys unqualified?

Hey blade, quote what I said so that I can comment on the exact wording that you refer to.

BTW, I've been pretty careful with my words, make sure that you are reading what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

Another BTW, some may have had more time than I, that could be so. But, if so, why was I able to get a Lear corporate job in a company in which I had no contacts, based upon my qualification and experience at a time when the PFT'rs were having to buy a seat in a Beech 1900? Enquiring minds want to know.:rolleyes:

enigma
 
I was refering to what I thought was you implying that all PFTers were unqualified, (Moral personal beliefs asside, this is just pure pilot skill related)

If am incorrect in my interpertation of what you wrote, I apologise.
With regards to the 1900 comment, I was not talking about gulfstream. In my previous post, I was talking about every other airline that was PFT during that time frame (90's). Which was many regioanal airlines as even Bobbysamd would agree.

PFT personal feelings asside, some guys that PFT'd at that time, and today at gulfstream, are far from unqualified. Even though what they have done may not sit well with you, or other PFT haters on a personal basis, SOME of these PFTers are indeed qualified to hold whatever job they landed/bought/whatever.
 
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Pre-Mesa Air Midwest P-F-T

blade230 said:
In my previous post, I was talking about every other airline that was PFT during that time frame (90's). Which was many regioanal airlines as even Bobbysamd would agree.
I do agree, especially in the early '90s, which remains my primary frame of reference (though I continue to be amazed that little really has changed since that time). I don't remember them all; the one I do remember was at Air Midwest before Mesa bought it. Around 1990, a pilot magazine featured an article about a stockbroker with about 600 hours who wanted to change careers. Air Midwest had some P-F-T program which sent P-F-Ters to FlightSafety for their training. The thing I remember the most about the article is how the guy completed training but had to wait forever before he went to the line.

At about the same time, Kit's rag, Career Pilot, ran a feature about P-F-T. I recall the article setting forth how P-F-T was becoming increasingly prevalent. At that point I drew the conclusion that flying remained a rich man's game. Unfortunately, after fourteen years I cannot recall the names of the airlines.
 
blade230 said:
I was refering to what I thought was you implying that all PFTers were unqualified, (Moral personal beliefs asside, this is just pure pilot skill related)


I never came close to saying that all PFT'rs were unqualified. However, I will say that most, according to my experience in the business, were not even close to the most qualified. For the ones who were hired in at 1000 and 200 by companies such as Continental Express (the 1900 comment refered to COEX), they were not qualified. Period. I'll go on record as saying that a 1000hour cessna pilot with 200 in a Seminole is not qualified to fly my family around. I know from where I speak. I WAS a 1000 hour Cherokee pilot with 300 in an old Apache when I was hired by MESA to be a B1300 (marketing name for the B200HDC) FO. I was more trouble than I was worth for at least 500 hours. I just didn't have enough time in command to have learned to make decisions. I hadn't seen enough, I hadn't scared myself enough. Luckily, I had scared myself a few times, and my training, along with my desire to live took those experiences and melded them into a pretty decent pilot. But, I will say again that 1000/200(the level that COEX called "qualified" for PFT) was not qualified to fly paying passengers. That IS my opinion.

If am incorrect in my interpertation of what you wrote, I apologise.
With regards to the 1900 comment, I was not talking about gulfstream. In my previous post, I was talking about every other airline that was PFT during that time frame (90's). Which was many regioanal airlines as even Bobbysamd would agree.

PFT personal feelings asside, some guys that PFT'd at that time, and today at gulfstream, are far from unqualified. Even though what they have done may not sit well with you, or other PFT haters on a personal basis, SOME of these PFTers are indeed qualified to hold whatever job they landed/bought/whatever.

Sorry to be quarrelsome, but I have to ask again, IF they were qualified, why did they BUY the job??????????????

enigma
 
Because the definition of "Qualified" is not a constant but rather moves up and down depending on the supply of pilots.

Also, the company determines whether or not you are "qualified". ACA, ASA, and Comair said I was "qualified" with my helo time but Eagle, AirNet and some others said I was "not qualified." Its a moving target.
 
enigma,

With all due respect I must completely disagree with what you are saying here. You cannot sit here and say these guys are "not qualified" due to "flight times". Whether or not they are 300 hour San Juan grads going into the RJ or 2000 hour instructors being hired off of the streets really is not overly relevant since they still must pass indoc, systems, sim, oral, checkride, ioe, etc, etc,.. If these guys are "not qualified" by this point in the game then they will wash out, bottom line.. I know of no instructor, training captain that will let someone sneak through the cracks that should not be there in the first place. I have flown with some lower time guys that were safer and better than guys with four times their flight time. Flight time is not always the key variable in the equation, "experience" and "background" is much more important in my opinion. Anyone can spend a few days pencil whipping a logbook but that is not going to help them in the sim/aircraft.. Rest assured if someone slips through the interviewthat should not they will not continue to sneak by once all the fun and games come to a halting stop when they step foot into the sim.


3 5 0
 
P-F-T for qualified pilots

enigma said:
I have to ask again, IF they were qualified, why did they BUY the job??????????????
That was one big reason why I did not P-F-T; the main one being that one does not buy a job, in any field. By 1990-'91, I had met every qualification on paper for the majority of commuters, but was not getting hired. I had some interviews, but my interview return was low compared to my paper output. P-F-T would have gotten me in. I refused to be degraded by paying for a job for which I was qualified.
Originally posted by 46driver
[T]he definition of "Qualified" is not a constant but rather moves up and down depending on the supply of pilots.

Also, the company determines whether or not you are "qualified" . . . . Its a moving target.
Very true comments. Just wait until hiring improves. We will have a flurry of posts from low-timers whining that they don't have 100 hours of multi for XYZ airline. I can remember that if you were toast if you didn't have 500 or more of multi, ad infinitum.
 
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Quote by BobbySamD

"
I will not bring up P-F-T companies where they are put into the right seat at 250 hours or 500 hours thereafter, and let's not compare them to foreign airline training. As you are well aware, foreign airlines place many 300-hour pilots in right seats of DC-9s and 737s. However, these pilots have been hand-picked to become pilots and receive extremely high-quality, intense training from their company school and/or a high-quality contractor. Not a moment is wasted. Compare it to military pilot training. These folks are extremely well-prepared to be airline pilots at 300 hours. Not the same as P-F-Ters.
"

-------------------------------------------------------------

I came back and paid a visit because a friend told that my topic was still abuzz.


Based on Bobby's definition pilots like 46 and 47 driver ARE qualified and shouldn't be questioned if they PFTd. Not only were they hand picked by Uncle Sugar but they have 2000+ operational flight hours to prove they had 'the right stuff.' Sometimes even combat evolved. Keep in mind these are folks that have ACTUAL military training. Not 'military-like' or 'similar to the military' as in the quote above.

Add this to what I mentioned before

GI BILL ( 60%) + Gulfstream CFI (50%) = 0% PFJ/PFT



Interestingly enough this site seems to be CFI heavy, which explains the total bias against PFT. Other sites: student, military, etc seem to have a more even tempered attitude toward the subject. Additionally review the following.

CFI 250 hrs + student 0 hrs = 125 hrs per seat in the cockpit

PFT 500 hrs + Capt 1500 hrs (min) = 1000 hrs per seat in the cockpit

looks like the pot calling the kettle black as far as who is qualified.



Now to play devils Advocate. I did research beyond this site on PFT and discovered that Teamsters tried to get Gulfstreamers to strike a few years back. I guess they didn't know that they never had a chance since the FOs would dare not screw themselves out of their own money by striking, thus leaving less that half the target audience available for strike. Now I dont know exactly where you draw the line between strike and freedom of speech but it must really suck to not be able to strike no matter how dire your working conditions are. Once again this is the kind of stuff I was looking for to make my ultimate decision not PFT, attitudes against PFT were much less of a factor. Realizing how powerless these PFTers and their Capts are gives me a devilish Sh!t eating grin, see para below.

Voss,

thanks for the info, good ideas however I am no longer willing to put money into aviation.... for the moment. I have now got my eyes set on an MBA. Can you guess what my thesis will be?

A low cost airline operation. I have got one to two years to tweak the details but it will be based around FOs paying the Capts salary (or the major portion of) this should keep operating cost lower and profits higher for me and my partners. As demonstrated above I doubt I will ever need strike insurance.

PFT is after all 4 me, how ironic...

Any savy investors out there? Keep an eye on this space.
 
P-F-T and military helo drivers

Los said:
Based on Bobby's definition pilots like 46 and 47 driver ARE qualified and shouldn't be questioned if they PFTd. Not only were they hand picked by Uncle Sugar but they have 2000+ operational flight hours to prove they had 'the right stuff.' Sometimes even combat evolved. Keep in mind these are folks that have ACTUAL military training. Not 'military-like' or 'similar to the military' as in the quote above.
What you overlook in your reasoning is while such folks are military-trained and combat-qualified is they have little or no experience in fixed-wing aircraft. They need airplane hours before they are qualified for airplane jobs. They have other avenues besides P-F-T to build whatever modicum of fixed-wing time they need for the airlines.

I had a student at MAPD who was also a new Army Reseve helo pilot who was going through the complete program from zero airplane time.

There are plenty of military helicopter pilots who instructed in airplanes, flew cargo or corporate, or whatever, before the airlines hired them. Moreover, opinion varies among the regionals regarding helo time. Some regionals have no problem with it as long as a helo applicant can offer minimal airplane time. Others will not consider any helicopter time at all. I believe the specific companies who accept all helicopter time were addressed elsewhere in other threads.

Finally, there is no total anti-P-F-T bias on the board. There is plenty of pro-P-F-T sentiment on this board, with much of it coming from flight instructors.

Good luck with your M.B.A.
 
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Just out of curiousity, how many fixed wing hours do you think I need before I am "qualified" to fly airplanes? Somehow, I don't think you and I are going to agree.
 
Fixed-wing hours for helo pilots

46Driver said:
Just out of curiousity, how many fixed wing hours do you think I need before I am "qualified" to fly airplanes? Somehow, I don't think you and I are going to agree.
I am not the one who sets minimum qualifications; the airlines and insurance companies set them. That is an issue to take up with those entities.

Having said that, as far as I, personally, am concerned, having enough fixed-wing to add your airplane and multi ratings onto your Commercial or ATP is good enough for me, and should be good enough for them.
 
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If PFT programs were that bad, insurance companies would not write policies that cover that PFT airline. Lets face the facts and let those with more money than brains pay the PFT fees. Maybe flight schools can have internship programs where they have the students wash and clean school aircraft for a promise of a "guaranteed" interview.

I'm still waiting for the legals to wake up and sue the "Academies" for false ads that promise the moon and in reality, give nothing but smoke & mirrors while management (school) LOL all the way to the bank.
 
I just put a plackard on the glareshield "DON'T HOVER THE AIRPLANE" and all was fine. Fling-wings fly an ILS just like the airplanes. We flew them at 90 kts in the -58 and I hear Blackhawks are really stable on the GS at 120. Left is left, right is right, etc. etc. No difference. Heck, you fly with the right hand and control power with the left -- perfect for a future FO.

Companies that don't recognize helicopter time have aviation neophytes in management. There is not “just trim it out” and relax. In an autorotation, you have about 2 seconds to react before the rotor rpm decays to the point that you ship has the lift of a brick. The VSI is pegged between 12-1600 fpm (with good rotor rpm) and with most profiles below 1000 AGL, you do the math, there’s no time to ask “What’s that?” In the OH-58, there are 42 actions with 63 memory items that have to be executed before referring to the checklist (if time permits). An hour banging around the pattern in a 152 is more valuable? Give me a break!
 
deadstick said:
I just put a plackard on the glareshield "DON'T HOVER THE AIRPLANE" and all was fine. Fling-wings fly an ILS just like the airplanes. We flew them at 90 kts in the -58 and I hear Blackhawks are really stable on the GS at 120. Left is left, right is right, etc. etc. No difference. Heck, you fly with the right hand and control power with the left -- perfect for a future FO.

Companies that don't recognize helicopter time have aviation neophytes in management. There is not “just trim it out” and relax. In an autorotation, you have about 2 seconds to react before the rotor rpm decays to the point that you ship has the lift of a brick. The VSI is pegged between 12-1600 fpm (with good rotor rpm) and with most profiles below 1000 AGL, you do the math, there’s no time to ask “What’s that?” In the OH-58, there are 42 actions with 63 memory items that have to be executed before referring to the checklist (if time permits). An hour banging around the pattern in a 152 is more valuable? Give me a break!


Methinks you rotorheads protest too much. You guys react like someone has accused you of incompetance. Remember, this thread was about paying for a JOB. Not about competance of helo pilots. Ya'll are way too touchy.

But since you offered up on the subject, I'll ask you this: Why would a well qualified candidate, BUY a job?

enigma
 
Bobby,

your training as a radio host must have allowed you to develop and harbor the stearnest opinions, I can't seem to get you to cop a plea on the pft issue, good on you, however I must side with 46 Driver on this one.

Not even in my most curious moments have I ever been willing to part with the exorbitant premiums associated with helicopter flight, so I will have to rely on testament from folks like DEADSTICK and other helicopter pilots I have spoken with.

Specifically what I have heard most about helicopters suggest that pound for pound they are much harder to fly than their FW equivalents (ie mtow, passenger load, max speeds, etc). One helicopter pilot explained it to me this way: A jet is like a 10-speed bike, fast, foward moving, very stable and easy to operate while a helicopter is more like uni-cycle, much more maneuverable (fore-aft-stationary), moves much slower, however a total chore to operate.

Just as most unicycle riders could easily transition to a 10-speed bike with little effort (think complex to simple) the helicopter pilot should easily transition to FW flight in a similar fashion since the net effect is just a reduction in workload (aerodynamic/airwork, systems, procedures, etc).

Consider the following:
(1) Chopper Pilot w FW ratings Multi-Comm or ATP and B-737 IOE complete on 1st revenue flight
(2) B-737 Pilot with recent rotary lic (hrs in cat similar to IOE for 737) on first solo or crew flight

which A/C would you board. If #2 is your answer I would suggest you update you will, insurance policies, etc. After all compare tasks such as hovering, formation flight, gunnery, tricky lunar landing, etc to raising gear handle, switching on Auto-pilot at 1000', Autothrottle on the takeoff (TOGA), twisting heading, alt, speed bugs, arming and executing flight plans and I think that you will find that one skill set heavily outwieghs the other with the helicopter pilot in favor.

Moreover, most if not all military helicopters have higher cruising/max speeds than the GA aircraft we CFI with yet the complexity of these Choppers are some orders of maginitude greater. Since these helicopters are heavy and turbine the either must require a type or operating specifications that hold the PIC to rules and procedure commensurate with that of a type rating holder. Any PIC of an aircraft which requires a type is inherently an instructor (who else is going to teach the FO after IOE). Add to all of this the mission profiles these guys fly: attacking, getting shot at, lifting heavy objects, landing on boat tops between other spinning helicopters, flying as low as possible in the pitch dark, etc and compare this to spinning around the pattern or going from A2B in a C-1x2 with ATC holding your hand guiding you along the whole route
and you have to wonder what on earth would a military helicopter gain CFIing in a C-1x2???? wtf over

Actually I would frown on the practice if they do this just to gain FW flight time, because instructing is a job better suited for someone who enjoys it and is happy cultivating and molding their student, rather than someone just trying to fill their books to get to the next job. In my opinion I would much rather see these guys PFT and move on to do what they are best at 'precision flying.' I have spent many nights (except those right after 9-11) safe and secure in the comfort of my bed thanks to the efforts of 46 and 47 Driver, why not continue to capitalize on this by having these Marines and Soldiers up front in the cockpits of our commercial airliners knowing that if any 2-bit terror-mite crosses their paths they will be dealt with in a righteous manner. (Geez I am feeling patriotic enough to seek out the nearest recruiter :-)

CFIer,

your comments ring true, insurance companies are ultr-frugal with their fiscal policies, I am sure that they are aware of PFT and would assign cost prohibitive premiums if they felt the least bit worried about it and how it would affect daily operations. Skeptics review my earlier thread on experience per seat in the cockpit pft vs cfi, and you will see why its no wonder that insurance rates for the cfi entrepreneur with his own aircraft have gone up so high that these guys have been forced out of business and left to the whim of fbos and flight academies.

Even better is your 2nd para 'more money than brains'. If pft is bad then the old saying 'a fool and his money are soon parted' or at leat caveat emptor 'buyer beware' will ring true. Based on risk vs gain, you could do much worse in Vegas, on the stock market, or even in a new sports car purchase.

Enigma

view my earlier threads, I have illustrated at least one way to Gulfstream it without spending a penny. Would you still consider this PFT??? If so I want to de-license your doc because he failed to note that you are a blind as a bat.

Bottom line is that there are times and situations where PFT may be good, even the toughest critic will acknowledge this if he reads my post objectively. As we all know the majority of cases PFT is bad, I can think of a couple of my former students to justify this, but to blast this thing as a wholesale evil just because you were lucky enough to get in a different way is WRONG!

For the folks who enter the biz a little later in life standby I will work on your case next, I want to clear the military helicopter pilots first.
 
Amen

CFI'er said:
Lets face the facts and let those with more money than brains pay the PFT fees. Maybe flight schools can have internship programs where they have the students wash and clean school aircraft for a promise of a "guaranteed" interview.

I'm still waiting for the legals to wake up and sue the "Academies" for false ads that promise the moon and in reality, give nothing but smoke & mirrors while management (school) LOL all the way to the bank.
I'd love to be the paralegal assigned to that case! Too bad our firm does not do such work.

However, while there are truth in advertising regs, consumer protection laws, bad-faith doctrines and contract laws, it is still only advertising. It is still up to the aspirant-consumer to ferret out truth from lies.
 
Management neophytes and rotor time

deadstick said:
Companies that don't recognize helicopter time have aviation neophytes in management . . . .
I agree. I prefer to use the term "coneheads."

My experience is that rotor pilots make excellent airplane pilots. Two of my best students were the aforementioned Army rotor pilot at Mesa and a former Army rotor pilot who came to me to add instrument privileges to his Private Airplane rating. The second guy in particular was excellent. I probably overtrained him because he was my first instrument student and second signoff. He did great for me and passed his practical without a problem. I had a student at Riddle who held a Canadian rotor license. He, too, was an excellent pilot.
 
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