Why Shouldn't I PFT!

[ThomasR]

PFT

I had to read a lot of post before I figured out what PFT stands for. I am a military trained pilot and found risking my ass provided more opportunity than risking my a$$et$. I have never gotten a job in aviation without going before a review board of at least three representatives from various parts of the company.

Once I got the job I never felt secure in that any in-house flap from higher seniority could put me back in the street. I read a lot about opportunity that gives the impression that jobs just fall from the sky, but I have found that opportunity is rarified on an individual level. Take what is available ...... do the best you can with what you get ...... create opportunities for others where you can ...... rest assured that no matter how big your lawn is, someone else will have greener grass.

 

[CFI'er]

All CFI's Are PFT'ers

When it comes right down to it, CFI's are the same as PFT programs. Now don't get me wrong, you get paid to log hours as a CFI. The only difference is they pay you rather than you pay them. Airlines will accept the PFT schools; so to say that airlines do not like an applicant because they went the PFT training route is wrong.

 

[enigma]

Re: economics

Isn't this simple economics? Too many pilots (and want to be pilots) and not enough jobs?

Yes

People will do whatever it takes to gain an advantage over the competition. I don't agree with PFT but it seems like the trend in an industry that is looking for quite a few hours for entry level work. If someone has worked hard for their money and they want to buy hours in an airplane then I can't look down upon them for it.

Obviously, you don't understand PFT.

PFT is buying a job. PFT AIN'T about buying hours.

I know many people (doctors/other professionals) who pay for all of their rental time etc. If they should now get a flying job b/c they bought all their time from hard earned dollars who am I to condemn them?

Unless they buy a job, they didn't PFT. So there is nothing to condem them about.

I also have friends who are airline captains today (with regionals) that started via PFT and these are great guys. Some of the sharpest guys I've met. Again, their thinking was it's a great way to build up the necessary time to get a right seat job.

Buying hours to gain experience is different from having the hours and still buying a job. In PFT's hayday, pilots with thousands of hours were still required to pay in order to get a class date. Once again, you're not speaking about the true PFT that riles pilots like myself up. Matter of fact, I would have loved to be able to go to a school that had a bridge program, which is what I suspect you are confusing with PFT.

Let's face it. Having a fresh CPL and 250 hours doesn't cut it anymore after 9-11, minus the very lucky few who can find a job with those hours. Insurance minimums have changed everything, along with a large chunk of the workforce being laid off. I hear this complaint from many new CPLs about how to bridge the gap from 250 hours to 500+ hours, or make that a 1000 hours in todays environment for that magic first right seat job.

I'm not a commercial pilot by any means and this is just my take on whats going on with the industry. I'll probably be flamed by some but it's only my opinion.

I hope that you don't take this as flame. Let's face it. Having a fresh commercial and 250 hours NEVER cut it. Now is no diffrent from any time in the past. If I could take you back 24 years to my college flight program, we'd hear the exact same concerns. Pilots would be wondering how they would ever get to 1000 and 200 multi.

Guess what, we all managed to fight and scrape and finally get jobs. Most of my fellow students have been at majors for a long time, and they never drug down the profession by buying a job. (Well, one did scab at EAL, and I don't think that he has worked a good job since. )

Personally, It took me ten years from high school until I was able to gain the right seat of a KingAir. Most of my buddys made it there in five or so, but non- of us had it easy. My slowness was mostly my own situation, but I have a good friend who graduated HS with me, stayed single, worked his behind off and it still took him eight years from college graduation to reach a major.

This is not, and has never been an easy career. Progression is slow. Accept it, don't cry about it, and never buy a job.

enigma

PS, not all of my last rant is directed at the quoted writer!!!!

 

[Timebuilder]

When it comes right down to it, CFI's are the same as PFT programs. Now don't get me wrong, you get paid to log hours as a CFI. The only difference is they pay you rather than you pay them.

Actually, we have had this discussion before.

A CFI does not "buy a job." He takes the training required to allow him to be a CFI anywhere. Then his students pay him for his professional services. He still isn't buying a job, and neither are his students.

 

[CDNJetPilot]

enigma

Maybe I am confused here. I understand Gulfstream is PFT, correct? Is the SIC pilot required?

I don't see the difference between buying block with your own money or paying Gulfstream for the time - unless the FO position is required. In that instance, I can see where a person should be paid to fulfill that requirement.

My only thoughts on this subject are like most other things in life. There is never a level playing field - unless you belong to a union where everyone usually progresses at the same rate. But this isn't a regulated profession in terms of how you build experience and there will always be people willing to do whatever it takes to build time based on their circumstances. Age for instance. Being older now, I too would have to find a method of building time quickly though I have no idea yet on how to do that should I decide to pursue a commercial aviation career.

 

[CFI'er]

Any Former Gulfstream Grads

Hey, are there any former Gulfstream grads that are flying at the regional or corporate level? Come on out from where ever you hide and report in.

 

[Los]

MD80

I was just joshing about the law suit crap. However, I am sure that if someone were to slip up and release names, faces, times, and places there would be some snide lawyer ready to turn this into a quick class action. Your point brings up a grim revalation in that there are many more people who will hold this against you than I thought. If this is the case it stands to reason that a PFTer may not be able to move beyond the location he PFT'd at ergo the desire to PFT at the highest level possible vice PFT into smaller equipment like Gulfstream.

I know you wont dare mention it but I am curious as to which larger commuter was covertly smacking down the PFTers. When I got my start in this biz it seems that every regional was affiliated with some type of PFT, internship, or other type of preferenctial hiring program. To name a few:

Am Eagle
Am West Express
ASA
ACA
Co EX
Comm Air
Chataqua
NW Airlink/Express/Mesaba and the rest of the gang in these colors

I could name at least ten others if I put my mind to it. If you were at one of these maybe the PFTers just bypassed your 'board' and sent some decoys your way to make you feel meaningful in that you were able to put the PFTers in their place.

ENIGMA

good points unfortunately I am not willing to wait around for an upswing, as I have been doing so already for 4 years. I still love and desire to fly however my motivation for this career is waning by the second.

DCitrus

buying training not in lieu of a specfic job seems insane. If I search hard enough I could find someone willing to sell me a DC-3 type and after that I would need to search 100 times harder to find someone who still flies that relic to send my resume.

de727 and Bobby

display some of the finest and strongest moral convictions as neither would PFT even if they had the cash to spare. By no means did I ever make the decision to commit but the fact that I thought about it leaves me a few steps behind these gentlemen, nothing I couldn't repent for at confession though

Lets hope the industry doesn't come across a series of fat cats like Mark Cubin (who PFT'd to become an Astronuaght) that want to take a year or so off from being rich and try their hand at flying co-pilot.

H-46

I found the APTAP site, interesting how the perspective differs for helicopter pilots, heck one guy was even willing to send his daughter with 0 hrs to Gulfstream. Doubtful that I would get any sympathy, understanding or a break from this group since I am neither military nor have flown helicopters and shared the struggles and made the sacrfices as they did.

I am still young enough to sign up for military flight training however since I never considered it before I am not going to try it now, not even in desperation. I just dont think I am quite cut out for the lifestyle. Also, it would be horrible to join the military and serve honorably just to be treated as a second class citizen by jockeys who honed their skill flying the same ASEL category aircraft as me, however without the point of the spear edge that I sure military training gives.

I also found interesting the number of helicopter pilots who later became Air Force Fighter pilots. Ironic that the AF would take them and give them the opportunity to fly the most expensive (per seat) and most challenging aircraft in the world yet the average B-rate regional wont even give them a second look.

As an interesting point to reflect on consider the following. Most military pilots have the GI Bill, which they have undoubtedly earned and paid their dues for. Second that with the fact that Gulfstream discounts its FO program by 50% for those who contract to CFI for a year first. Thus the First Officer program could be fully earned and not paid for (no money down, geez if I could only package this and sell it Carton Sheets style). With all of this in mind would an appropriatley rated CFI/Military pilot who contracts to CFI with Gulstream for a year be considered a PFTer just because he is affiliated with the Company? I am sure that there wont be long lines of folks going to sign up for the military just to fit in this category but it does make an interesting point.

Illni

thanks for the ref to Airnet, although I am not willing to purchase even another .5 hr unless it leads directly to employment. I'd much rather take my new money break off a small chunk for grad school and invest the rest.

CDNJetP

good point on the supply and demand, if there continue to be more pilots than jobs available then this industry will go the way of Hollywood were actors and comedians will stab each other in the back to work for free just to be seen in hopes of impressing some one just to get a shot at 15 min of fame. This situation seems to be aggravated by the fact that schools and training centers advertise heavily to lure young men and wonmen in for training and tap into their pockets preying on their dream to one day fly and get paid for it. And we as CFIs stand idly by and even help encourage them to fly more so that we can fill our own logbooks to the furtherance of our own careers (did someone mention selfish earlier), not realizing that we are just dumping more commercial pilots on the market with no where to go once they get that ticket, keeping a perpetual tilt on the pilot-job suplly-demand ratio.

Timer

consier the fact that some schools or training centers give preference or even require that students must have been trained at their center to work at their center. Now if this isn't PFT it is definitely 'PFT-like' and not much different from Gulfstream who also requires that you must train with them to work with them.


--

Most interesting is that everyone seemed to get emotionally entangled and were very quick to spew out how they hate PFT and how bad it is however no one (short of MD80) offered any concrete evidence of how PFT hurts. I can think of one example:
There was a School in Orlando FL a couple of years ago that gave ab initio training in stages (I,II,III) with direct feeds into ASA and Eagle. I can't remember the name of the place but I think they went t^ts up bankrupt just prior to or right after 9-11 leaving all of their students hanging high and dry; no refund, no more training, even some of their personal gear that was stranded on the premises was lost when the gates were locked. This is the type of information I was looking for.

Based on the fact that this post received many more replies than my other post by 12-1 (even though both display the little flaming folders) I must conclude that PFT remains the arch nemis of the industry and will not significantly (and may possibly hurt) the aspiring pilot who is between completing ratings and their first job.

Moreover since there was no mention of any company other than Gulfstream or TabExpress, and I am not interested in eithter one, I feel that my money and time can be put to better use elsewhere.

Before I go I would like to adress on other point. I have heard it mentioned that PFT takes a seat away from a more deserving Co-pilot and lowers wages for all Co-pilots. I doubt this is true at Gulfstream. I took a round trip on one of their flights..., guess what? every passenger there (myself included) was looking for the cheapest price they could get. I mean these folks were a few pennies away from being Greyhound clientele and I dont think any one of them would have been put off if someone told them that the Co-pilot PFT'd vice being paid in order to provide them with lower cost tickets. In fact if this information was released I think more passengers would follow this trend and demand that more airlines become Gulfstream-like just so that they could buy cheaper tickets. Net effect is that Gulfstream PFTers dont take any co-Pilot seats from anyone because I doubt the company would be in operation without their funding. They do however enable that airline to exist and operate 'out of the red' while building valuable (or maybe not so valuable depending on your perspective) experience. So I guess the Gulfstream Capts, management, and frugral passengers should comfort and thank the Gulfstream PFTer for all the hate and discontent they experience everywhere else they decide to hang their hats.

As for me I am leaving this industry with the conclusion that subjectivity prefers and promotes 'itself', that is CFIers prefer to hire and fly with others who CFI'd; military jet jockeys may feel that only another jet jockey is worthy to grace the same cockpits as them. PFTers certainly dare not hold anything against other PFTers and therefore should not mind hiring or flying with them. This could be broken down ad nauseum into many different categories age, gender, ethinicity, religious belief, education level and probably still hold true.

Syonara,

p.s. look out for publications, and snazzy kneeboard, headset (d/c), and various other aspiring pilot paraphanellia at an FBO near you for pennies on the dollar

 

[enigma]

Re: enigma

Maybe I am confused here.

Yes, you are confused. Understandably so, because the people who benefit from the practice try to hide the true nature of the beast. The airlines who utilize PFT do not want you to see PFT for what it is, so they call it PFT instead of calling it PFJ. If they termed it PFJ, everyone would be outraged. But they called it PFT, that way the beneficiaries could hid behind the word training.

Let me try again to explain PFT, and what it is not. First, PFT is not paying for training. We all do that as we progress from student to private, to commmercial, etc. We pay with dollars, mil guys pay with time of committment. But we all pay to gain the ratings and qualifications necessary for gainful employment.

What we do not do, is buy a job. PFT is pure and simple, the buying of a job. During the mid 90's, turn over at regional commuter airlines was tremendous. In order to try and prevent losing the money spent to train a pilot that left in short order, airlines came up various schemes to keep the pilots from leaving. Training contracts, training loans, etc were some of the ways they came up with to combat the problem. At somewhat the same time, training providers like FSI, were making money off of pre-employment screening/sim training/sim ride prep, from airline aspirants. Some enterprising individual took the FSI concept and went a step further, he realized that if a wannabe would pay for FSI sim check prep, he might also pay for his newhire intitial training. This dude realized that the best way to overcome the losses incurred when pilots left for greener pastures was to let them bear the costs to begin with. That way, if they left, the company was out nothing. Managers soon subverted the original intent into a hiring criteria. They started hiring less qualified pilots who had a large bank account instead of hiring qualified pilots. At a time back in the early-mid 90's, a company like Comair would pass over a E120 rated Captain and hire a 1000hour CFI, with the willingness to pay $18K being the deciding factor.

That is PFT. When the ability/desire to pay for a job take precedence over qualifications.

In PFT, the buyer (newhire) gains nothing transferable to any other employer. You are paying for your airline SPECIFIC newhire training. If you leave, or wash out, it's down the tubes. Even if you don't leave of your own accord, (say the company goes broke) you still have nothing of value. As opposed say, going to a flight school and training for your ATP. When you get that ATP, it's yours for life. When you PFT, the SIC checkride essentially belongs to the company because it is no good anywhere else.

I understand Gulfstream is PFT, correct? Is the SIC pilot required?

Gulfstream is Gulfstream. It may be worse than classical PFT, at least Comair, et al, kept you on after your IOE. Gulfstream rents you the seat and then kicks you out so that they can swindle the next sucker out of his money. The SIC is required.

I don't see the difference between buying block with your own money or paying Gulfstream for the time - unless the FO position is required. In that instance, I can see where a person should be paid to fulfill that requirement.

The SIC is required, so having a paying customer in the right seat deprives the industry of another paying pilot job. Believe it or not, we are all in this together, the more jobs, the better. Any time a job is being done for free, we all suffer. We suffer because manament gains substantiation for their belief that we are all a bunch of whores. It encourages them to continue employement practices like whipsawing because they see that we will undercut each other. They refuse to pay a decent wage whenever others are offering to work for free, etc.

My only thoughts on this subject are like most other things in life. There is never a level playing field - unless you belong to a union where everyone usually progresses at the same rate. But this isn't a regulated profession in terms of how you build experience and there will always be people willing to do whatever it takes to build time based on their circumstances. Age for instance. Being older now, I too would have to find a method of building time quickly though I have no idea yet on how to do that should I decide to pursue a commercial aviation career.

There are lots of flying jobs that allow quick building of time. They don't pay much. The rest of us took them, why do the PFT'rs think that they are somehow too good to work as a CFI/banner tow'er/pipeline patroller/traffic pilot/night freight/jump pilot/delivery pilot, etc?

My final point is this: people don't PFT for thousand dollar a month jobs, but pilots willing to work for nothing (PFT) will eventually bring down all pilots wages, so don't PFT, you're only shooting yourself in the foot in the long term.

regards,
enigma

 

[enigma]

When I got my start in this biz it seems that every regional was affiliated with some type of PFT, internship, or other type of preferenctial hiring program. To name a few:

Am Eagle
Am West Express
ASA
ACA
Co EX
Comm Air
Chataqua
NW Airlink/Express/Mesaba and the rest of the gang in these colors

Los, please begin to differentiate between PFT and internship. PFT is not internship. Internship is not dishonorable, buying a job is not honorable.


regards,
enigma

 

[Caveman]

"On the other hand, PFT does give us a good indicator of who will be the future scabs."

DCitrus9,

The only example I know of where pilots that PFT'd also had the opportunity to cross a picket line was at CMR in '01. Not one crossed and there were conservatively at least 200 pilots that PFT'd.