Why Shouldn't I PFT!

[deadstick]

I just put a plackard on the glareshield "DON'T HOVER THE AIRPLANE" and all was fine. Fling-wings fly an ILS just like the airplanes. We flew them at 90 kts in the -58 and I hear Blackhawks are really stable on the GS at 120. Left is left, right is right, etc. etc. No difference. Heck, you fly with the right hand and control power with the left -- perfect for a future FO.

Companies that don't recognize helicopter time have aviation neophytes in management. There is not “just trim it out” and relax. In an autorotation, you have about 2 seconds to react before the rotor rpm decays to the point that you ship has the lift of a brick. The VSI is pegged between 12-1600 fpm (with good rotor rpm) and with most profiles below 1000 AGL, you do the math, there’s no time to ask “What’s that?” In the OH-58, there are 42 actions with 63 memory items that have to be executed before referring to the checklist (if time permits). An hour banging around the pattern in a 152 is more valuable? Give me a break!

 

[enigma]

I just put a plackard on the glareshield "DON'T HOVER THE AIRPLANE" and all was fine. Fling-wings fly an ILS just like the airplanes. We flew them at 90 kts in the -58 and I hear Blackhawks are really stable on the GS at 120. Left is left, right is right, etc. etc. No difference. Heck, you fly with the right hand and control power with the left -- perfect for a future FO.

Companies that don't recognize helicopter time have aviation neophytes in management. There is not “just trim it out” and relax. In an autorotation, you have about 2 seconds to react before the rotor rpm decays to the point that you ship has the lift of a brick. The VSI is pegged between 12-1600 fpm (with good rotor rpm) and with most profiles below 1000 AGL, you do the math, there’s no time to ask “What’s that?” In the OH-58, there are 42 actions with 63 memory items that have to be executed before referring to the checklist (if time permits). An hour banging around the pattern in a 152 is more valuable? Give me a break!

Methinks you rotorheads protest too much. You guys react like someone has accused you of incompetance. Remember, this thread was about paying for a JOB. Not about competance of helo pilots. Ya'll are way too touchy.

But since you offered up on the subject, I'll ask you this: Why would a well qualified candidate, BUY a job?

enigma

 

[Los]

Bobby,

your training as a radio host must have allowed you to develop and harbor the stearnest opinions, I can't seem to get you to cop a plea on the pft issue, good on you, however I must side with 46 Driver on this one.

Not even in my most curious moments have I ever been willing to part with the exorbitant premiums associated with helicopter flight, so I will have to rely on testament from folks like DEADSTICK and other helicopter pilots I have spoken with.

Specifically what I have heard most about helicopters suggest that pound for pound they are much harder to fly than their FW equivalents (ie mtow, passenger load, max speeds, etc). One helicopter pilot explained it to me this way: A jet is like a 10-speed bike, fast, foward moving, very stable and easy to operate while a helicopter is more like uni-cycle, much more maneuverable (fore-aft-stationary), moves much slower, however a total chore to operate.

Just as most unicycle riders could easily transition to a 10-speed bike with little effort (think complex to simple) the helicopter pilot should easily transition to FW flight in a similar fashion since the net effect is just a reduction in workload (aerodynamic/airwork, systems, procedures, etc).

Consider the following:
(1) Chopper Pilot w FW ratings Multi-Comm or ATP and B-737 IOE complete on 1st revenue flight
(2) B-737 Pilot with recent rotary lic (hrs in cat similar to IOE for 737) on first solo or crew flight

which A/C would you board. If #2 is your answer I would suggest you update you will, insurance policies, etc. After all compare tasks such as hovering, formation flight, gunnery, tricky lunar landing, etc to raising gear handle, switching on Auto-pilot at 1000', Autothrottle on the takeoff (TOGA), twisting heading, alt, speed bugs, arming and executing flight plans and I think that you will find that one skill set heavily outwieghs the other with the helicopter pilot in favor.

Moreover, most if not all military helicopters have higher cruising/max speeds than the GA aircraft we CFI with yet the complexity of these Choppers are some orders of maginitude greater. Since these helicopters are heavy and turbine the either must require a type or operating specifications that hold the PIC to rules and procedure commensurate with that of a type rating holder. Any PIC of an aircraft which requires a type is inherently an instructor (who else is going to teach the FO after IOE). Add to all of this the mission profiles these guys fly: attacking, getting shot at, lifting heavy objects, landing on boat tops between other spinning helicopters, flying as low as possible in the pitch dark, etc and compare this to spinning around the pattern or going from A2B in a C-1x2 with ATC holding your hand guiding you along the whole route
and you have to wonder what on earth would a military helicopter gain CFIing in a C-1x2???? wtf over

Actually I would frown on the practice if they do this just to gain FW flight time, because instructing is a job better suited for someone who enjoys it and is happy cultivating and molding their student, rather than someone just trying to fill their books to get to the next job. In my opinion I would much rather see these guys PFT and move on to do what they are best at 'precision flying.' I have spent many nights (except those right after 9-11) safe and secure in the comfort of my bed thanks to the efforts of 46 and 47 Driver, why not continue to capitalize on this by having these Marines and Soldiers up front in the cockpits of our commercial airliners knowing that if any 2-bit terror-mite crosses their paths they will be dealt with in a righteous manner. (Geez I am feeling patriotic enough to seek out the nearest recruiter

CFIer,

your comments ring true, insurance companies are ultr-frugal with their fiscal policies, I am sure that they are aware of PFT and would assign cost prohibitive premiums if they felt the least bit worried about it and how it would affect daily operations. Skeptics review my earlier thread on experience per seat in the cockpit pft vs cfi, and you will see why its no wonder that insurance rates for the cfi entrepreneur with his own aircraft have gone up so high that these guys have been forced out of business and left to the whim of fbos and flight academies.

Even better is your 2nd para 'more money than brains'. If pft is bad then the old saying 'a fool and his money are soon parted' or at leat caveat emptor 'buyer beware' will ring true. Based on risk vs gain, you could do much worse in Vegas, on the stock market, or even in a new sports car purchase.

Enigma

view my earlier threads, I have illustrated at least one way to Gulfstream it without spending a penny. Would you still consider this PFT??? If so I want to de-license your doc because he failed to note that you are a blind as a bat.

Bottom line is that there are times and situations where PFT may be good, even the toughest critic will acknowledge this if he reads my post objectively. As we all know the majority of cases PFT is bad, I can think of a couple of my former students to justify this, but to blast this thing as a wholesale evil just because you were lucky enough to get in a different way is WRONG!

For the folks who enter the biz a little later in life standby I will work on your case next, I want to clear the military helicopter pilots first.

 

[bobbysamd]

Amen

Lets face the facts and let those with more money than brains pay the PFT fees. Maybe flight schools can have internship programs where they have the students wash and clean school aircraft for a promise of a "guaranteed" interview.

I'm still waiting for the legals to wake up and sue the "Academies" for false ads that promise the moon and in reality, give nothing but smoke & mirrors while management (school) LOL all the way to the bank.

I'd love to be the paralegal assigned to that case! Too bad our firm does not do such work.

However, while there are truth in advertising regs, consumer protection laws, bad-faith doctrines and contract laws, it is still only advertising. It is still up to the aspirant-consumer to ferret out truth from lies.

 

[bobbysamd]

Management neophytes and rotor time

Companies that don't recognize helicopter time have aviation neophytes in management . . . .

I agree. I prefer to use the term "coneheads."

My experience is that rotor pilots make excellent airplane pilots. Two of my best students were the aforementioned Army rotor pilot at Mesa and a former Army rotor pilot who came to me to add instrument privileges to his Private Airplane rating. The second guy in particular was excellent. I probably overtrained him because he was my first instrument student and second signoff. He did great for me and passed his practical without a problem. I had a student at Riddle who held a Canadian rotor license. He, too, was an excellent pilot.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

[Y]our training as a radio host must have allowed you to develop and harbor the stearnest opinions. I can't seem to get you to cop a plea on the pft issue

It has nothing at all to do with covering news or hosting talk shows. I encountered P-F-T after I did radio. P-F-T is an employment issue only.

Specifically what I have heard most about helicopters suggest that pound for pound they are much harder to fly than their FW equivalents (ie mtow, passenger load, max speeds, etc).

Read my comments above, if you have not already. I do not believe we disagree regarding helicopter pilots' ability to fly airplanes.

This is really a long-standing issue. I recall articles from the 1990s in Career Pilot magazine that addressed the difficulties helo pilots face in airline hiring.

Bottom line is that there are times and situations where PFT may be good . . .

I know of no such situation, and, if you are proposing P-F-T . . . .

For the folks who enter the biz a little later in life . . .

I would still disagree, strenuously. I was one such person. I got my first full-time flying job at age 37, as an ERAU instructor. With that job, I built enough time to finally warrant commuter interviews. A lot of older people who change careers feel that they are "owed" and merit extra consideration, and use that to justify P-F-T. The only thing that anyone is "owed" is the same consideration given to everyone.

I am sure that much younger pilots would protest by way of their hiring board blackballs, especially when they put in the years and to build their quals sufficient for hire.

Finally,

Why would a well qualified candidate, BUY a job?

That's been my point as well. I previously presented how I stood at a crossroads after those interviews and the direction I took.

 

[enigma]

.............I must side with 46 Driver on this one. ..............................................

cut and paste. Methinks you rotorheads protest too much. You guys react like someone has accused you of incompetance. Remember, this thread was about paying for a JOB. Not about competance of helo pilots. Ya'll are way too touchy.

But since you offered up on the subject, I'll ask you this: Why would a well qualified candidate, BUY a job?

enigma

Enigma

view my earlier threads, I have illustrated at least one way to Gulfstream it without spending a penny. Would you still consider this PFT???

I guess you don't read very well, I can't have a discussion of wits with an unarmed man.

If so I want to de-license your doc because he failed to note that you are a blind as a bat.

See above text.

Bottom line is that there are times and situations where PFT may be good, even the toughest critic will acknowledge this if he reads my post objectively.

Wrong, I'm not even the toughest critic and I will not acknowledge that there is a time when PFT may be good.

As we all know the majority of cases PFT is bad, I can think of a couple of my former students to justify this, but to blast this thing as a wholesale evil just because you were lucky enough to get in a different way is WRONG!

I wasn't LUCKY enough to get in another way. I waited until I was qualified under the prevailing standards of my day. Unlike those who deem themselves so important that doing wrong is ok because they're too good to wait their turn.

For the folks who enter the biz a little later in life standby I will work on your case next, I want to clear the military helicopter pilots first.

I've spent a great deal of time sharing a cockpit with retired and ex-Army, Navy and Airforce helo pilots. I was raised close to one of the Army's largest helo bases, and most of my college professors were retired Army rotorheads, and I believe that I can speak fairly authoritatively for them and tell you that your position about their need for affirmative action would just piss them off, ROYALLY.
My first good job was given to my by a retired military rotorhead. He is also the pilot who taught me that no pilot worth his salt would EVER pay for a job. FWIW, Not knowing any better, I offered to buy my own type, he later told me that my statement almost cost me the job. He only hired me because he recognized my immaturity in the job market. Had I pushed the buy a job theme, I would not have been selected. BTW, the job was higher paying than any regional airline job at the time.

The pilot who hired me for the best job I ever had was a retired Airforce rotorhead. I have since been lucky enough to spend a great deal of time in his presence and have discussed this issue at length. He has absolutely NO use for anyone who would buy a job. He was EAL and considers PFT'rs on the same level as scabs.

OBTW, have I said this lately? Why would a well qualified candidate, BUY a job?

enigma