Why Shouldn't I PFT!

[46Driver]

I thought we buried this "they had already paid there dues so PFT was OK crap" a couple of years ago. You seem to indicate that PFT was just another way to "imporvise, adapt and overcome". Well that's a bunch of horse hockey. I don't make any excuse for the prejudice against rotorheads, but to PFT as a way to overcome the prejudice was not benificial to the profession. The best pilot I ever shared a cockpit with was a retired Naval Officer rotorhead. He too, couldn't go straight from the service to AA, but he didn't buy an F-ing job. He took a job and got himself up to the qualifications necessary to get a better job. (then he quit and started flying a Jetranger in the desert because he really didn't want to fly a bus for eight legs a day. )

Are your buddies that PFT'd proud to have acquired a job based upon the size of their checkbook?

How many of the guys that did the mil. helo to PFT airline thing are currently flying at a major airline? What percentage would you say that number is?


enigma

The system is stacked against them. What do you expect them to do - go buzz around in Cessna for 3 years? They already have several thousand hours of multi-engine turbine, glass cockpit time. As for qualifications, it is a moving target depending on when you got hired. I got hired (PFT was not required in 2000) with only 200 fixed wing hours into a glass cockpit jet so obviously it can be done. Likewise, the majority of fixed wing primary instructors in the Navy and Marine Corps are helo bubbas with only 100 hours of fixed time - a few hours later, they are out teaching in 700 HP turboprops instruments, fams, formation, and acrobatics so 25+ years of Navy training blows DCitrus's argument away.... (feel free to go to www.aptap.org and disparage helo guys, especially that 1000 hours of hot air balloon time quote, and see the response you get....)

Are they proud that they PFT'ed? They honestly don't care one way or the other. They wish they didn't have to so they could save the money they earned in the military but that's life.

I have no idea how many are at the majors. My last CO is flying for American and many are regional captains (most of my peer group has only been in the industry for 4 to 6 years so that question is not relevant.)

 

[Typhoon1244]

I'm confused.

An awful lot of people on this board claim to hate "PFT" (Pay For Training) and everything associated with it. It sounds to me like what you guys are really upset about is "PFJ" (Pay For a Job).

What about an outfit that requires a "training contract" with subsequent reimbursement? Do you guys still call that "PFT?" Is a guy who "PFT'd" at ASA in '98 and got his money back just as reprehensible as a guy who bought right-seat time at Gulfstream, etc.?

 

[enigma]

The system is stacked against them. What do you expect them to do - go buzz around in Cessna for 3 years? ...........
I have no idea how many are at the majors. My last CO is flying for American and many are regional captains (most of my peer group has only been in the industry for 4 to 6 years so that question is not relevant.)

46, The qualifications of military helo drivers is not the point in question. I don't know of any real pilot who would argue against your flying skills. But having 2000 hours of military helo time doesn't justify buying a job.

How many of your buddies would have bought a job at a commuter/regional had they known that the big money major was never going to be an option to them due to economic forces? I have yet to meet a pilot, no less a PFT'r, who took/bought into a regional level job with the expectation that said regional job was the top of the career ladder. The question is absolutely relevant, and you made my point. You've all been in the business 4 to 6 years, and I'll bet that not a blinking one of you expected to sit at a commuter for more than three of those years.

Another question, what will you say when the next batch of wannabees comes in and undercuts your wages? What if Branson gets the ok to bring in low paid eastern european pilots, will you say that's ok? After all, most of them were once highly trained and skilled military pilots, and they only want to get ahead. It would be unfair for Branson to have to follow our rules, after all he is a highly experienced airline owner, isn't he?

enigma

 

[enigma]

I'm confused.

An awful lot of people on this board claim to hate "PFT" (Pay For Training) and everything associated with it. It sounds to me like what you guys are really upset about is "PFJ" (Pay For a Job).

Typhoon, you're just playing with words. You know good and well that the term "PFT" stands for buying a job. Management termed it PFT so as to attempt to sugar coat reality. It is and always was, buying a job. I've posted enough clarifications (for the last five years) to ensure that you know the truth.

regards,
enigma

 

[Typhoon1244]

Typhoon, you're just playing with words. You know good and well...[etc.]

Easy, easy! I was not "playing with words." Not everybody's been here as long as you have, and I was trying to clarify the thread for others who may be asking the same question.

(Jesus! Have a beer...)

Edit: Besides, what do you care? This whole thing is flamebait anyway...

 

[Flying Illini]

Have you tried Airnet or any other night freight operation? I know airnet is hiring and you may have a chance with the hours that you have. I know someone who got hired with less time and someone who got hired with 1500 hrs. Maybe use some of that inheritance towards a few hundred more hours. Seriously, I don't think you've scrapped bottom looking for a job. Good luck.

 

[DCitrus9]

aview1, try reading for comprehension.
I did not say they will scab.
I said it is a good indicator of the type of person who will scab. I stand behind that statement. Someone who is more concerned with themselves, the rest of the world be dammed, can justify anything to themselves. This includes crossing a picket line.
Enigma summed up the consequences nicely. If you need more, try an economics class.

 

[aview1]

DCitrus9, I have an MBA, but thanks for stating your opinion.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

An awful lot of people on this board claim to hate "PFT" (Pay For Training) and everything associated with it. It sounds to me like what you guys are really upset about is "PFJ" (Pay For a Job).

P-F-T means just that, but it is also a term of art. Clearly, if you pay for training, you are buying a job.

What about an outfit that requires a "training contract" with subsequent reimbursement? Do you guys still call that "PFT?"

I do not have a problem with training contracts, as long as paying money up-front to the employer is not required.

Is a guy who "PFT'd" at ASA in '98 and got his money back just as reprehensible as a guy who bought right-seat time at Gulfstream, etc.?

Well, he did have to remit money as a term of employment, didn't he? Once more, P-F-T, pay-for-job, or whatever you call it is an employment issue.

 

[CDNJetPilot]

economics

Isn't this simple economics? Too many pilots (and want to be pilots) and not enough jobs?

People will do whatever it takes to gain an advantage over the competition. I don't agree with PFT but it seems like the trend in an industry that is looking for quite a few hours for entry level work. If someone has worked hard for their money and they want to buy hours in an airplane then I can't look down upon them for it. I know many people (doctors/other professionals) who pay for all of their rental time etc. If they should now get a flying job b/c they bought all their time from hard earned dollars who am I to condemn them?

I also have friends who are airline captains today (with regionals) that started via PFT and these are great guys. Some of the sharpest guys I've met. Again, their thinking was it's a great way to build up the necessary time to get a right seat job.

Let's face it. Having a fresh CPL and 250 hours doesn't cut it anymore after 9-11, minus the very lucky few who can find a job with those hours. Insurance minimums have changed everything, along with a large chunk of the workforce being laid off. I hear this complaint from many new CPLs about how to bridge the gap from 250 hours to 500+ hours, or make that a 1000 hours in todays environment for that magic first right seat job.

I'm not a commercial pilot by any means and this is just my take on whats going on with the industry. I'll probably be flamed by some but it's only my opinion.