Why Shouldn't I PFT!

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To the fellow who asked about pilots from Gulfstream International Airlines now at other operators; we have one I know of personally who flies for us (Cathay Pacific) on the 777. He is a European national, and I believe we may have a couple of others that flew for Gulfstream Intl.. I believe they are Canadian.

We have many pilots here who, according to the definition given on this thread, P-F-T'ed.

We are one of the most selective airlines in the world when it comes to flight crew recruiment. If a pilot is a well rounded person, with above average flying skills, that is what we find attractive, not how they purchased, or did not purchase their training.

 

[sf3boy]

Los, To my knowledge, Mesaba has never been PFT. To me, PFT will tend to employ pilots that have less than adequate experience than what is required, in my mind, to operate a turboprop or jet. I can understand that CFIing right now might be sparse for hours, but there are freight jobs out there. Most of them will require 135 min times, but to me that is better than hanging out at the airport hoping that somebody will walk in and say, "Will you teach me to fly my brand new King Air?".

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream

Maybe I am confused here. I understand Gulfstream is PFT, correct? Is the SIC pilot required?

Yes. Gulfstream bills itself as a Part 121 carrier. SICs are required under Part 121 ops for the aircraft Gulfstream operates, which are Beech 1900s. Therefore, the SICs are clearly required per the rules under which Gulfstream operates.

P-F-T is an employment issue. Some feel that the Captain, who is a company employee hired through ordinary means, that the FO (SIC) should be hired similarly. "Ordinary means" implies submitting an application and/or resume setting forth your quals, being interviewed, hired and trained. Under a P-F-T scheme, one might go through an interview process, but getting the "job" boils down to ability and desire to pay for the training. That is what many find problematical.

Hope that helps.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T airlines

To the best of my recollection:

Am Eagle

No. It was not when I interviewed there in 1990. It was not a few years ago when a friend of mine was with them briefly.

Am West Express

Do you mean Mesa? That depends on your point of view. MAPD is not P-F-T. Mesa's PACE and its ATP program are pay-for-interview.

ASA

Once more, it depends. We had a Riddle instructor who got on as a street hire at ASA. FSI has had a tie-in with ASA which was P-F-T. It had another program with ASA in which applicants were hired conditionally and were picked up after instructing at least 800 hours at FSI.

Co EX

We have had one regular poster here who said he P-F-Td some years ago. I believe he said that Continental Express did away with P-F-T.

Comm Air

Do you mean Comair and Comair Aviation Academy, now known as DCA? That is another "no." Students know they can get "the interview" through hard work (and politicking), but Comair is still just a big 141 flight school. Comair did have a P-F-T program about ten years ago, but did away with it a few years ago.

NW Airlink/Express

Could that be Express I, which is now Pinnacle? It reportedly hires Gulfstream P-F-T grads. I don't know if it hires off the street.

Mesaba

Mesaba was not P-F-T fourteen years ago. I do not believe it was ever P-F-T.

Perhaps the argument can be made that since apparently so few regionals are P-F-T that it should not matter. I submit, again, that it does. Notwithstanding the harm it does to pilots, generally, I submit that you risk harm to yourself in terms of blackball potential, and to your finances in terms of being ripped off.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T hire at Cathay (edited, see succeeding post below)

To the fellow who asked about pilots from Gulfstream International Airlines now at other operators; we have one I know of personally who flies for us (Cathay Pacific) on the 777.

Was he hired directly from Gulfstream onto the B777 or did he got some other experience along the way?

 

[46Driver]

Re: P-F-T airlines

I submit that you risk harm to yourself in terms of blackball potential, and to your finances in terms of being ripped off.

And the counterpoint to this is that most military pilots on the hiring committees are not going to care about PFT one way or the other, and the loss of seniority can wreck your finances.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: P-F-T

Well, [a hypothetical ASA applicant in '98] did have to remit money as a term of employment, didn't he? Once more, P-F-T, pay-for-job, or whatever you call it is an employment issue.

So I guess I'm not invited for Thanksgiving, huh? That's okay...I'll still send a card.

Particularly in light of the reimbursement, I still think it was a good choice. It beats being on furlough. Being in the low four hundreds among fifteen hundred pilots isn't bad, either.

 

[FN FAL]

Once more, it depends. We had a Riddle instructor who got on as a street hire at ASA.

I don't mean to nit pick, but I thougth the term "off the street" meant hiring of captains. IE: they hired "off the street" captains because nobody wanted to or could upgrade, so they bypassed the IN company FO's.

 

[center]

For Bobbysamd,

This, I should offer to him to answer, but I do not think he would frequent this board. Then again I could be mistaken, we are only professional colleagues, not mates. Without specific information; I understood he came directly from Gulfstream Intl. Airlines. I was also under the assumption that he had been there for several years. He was not placed directly onto the 777, as he would have been hired as a relief/cruise pilot (second officer) initially to train him in Cathay Pacific SOP's, and build his experience. He would also have been in this position for at least 2-3 years minimum.

The only other method we offer recruitment for foreign nationals, is direct entry first officers on the freight side. This entry method requires heavy jet time (757,767, etc.) or military jet experience. Commuter type aircraft are not suitable.

Please don't misunderstand my posting above, by your caption Bobbysamd, it sounds as though you are assuming Cathay Pacifc requires new hire pilots to pay for their training. This is not the case. We pay for all expenses once a pilot is accepted, including room and board while in conversion training in Australia.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T hire

Without specific information; I understood he came directly from Gulfstream Intl. Airlines. I was also under the assumption that he had been there for several years . . . . .

So, perhaps, he was a Captain at Gulfstream before Cathay hired him. A far cry from being hired as a former P-F-T FO.

y your caption Bobbysamd, it sounds as though you are assuming Cathay Pacifc requires new hire pilots to pay for their training. This is not the case. We pay for all expenses once a pilot is accepted, including room and board while in convertion training in Australia.

Oh, no, I have known of Cathay for years and never gained any impression that it was a P-F-T company. I know that it has recruited foreign nationals as pilots for years. Captain Mac, late of Flight Crews International, who specialized in foreign airline recruitment, ran blurbs in his newsletters about Cathay recruiting - and the high minimum quals required.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

So I guess I'm not invited for Thanksgiving, huh? That's okay...I'll still send a card.

No, you're still invited. Besides, you are an ex-Capper, which is a point in your favor.

 

[bobbysamd]

Street hires

I don't mean to nit pick, but I thougth the term "off the street" meant hiring of captains. IE: they hired "off the street" captains because nobody wanted to or could upgrade, so they bypassed the IN company FO's.

I've understood it to mean anyone who just submits an app and is interviewed, etc.

The Riddle instructor to whom I refer was hired at ASA as an FO. I'm sure that being from Georgia didn't hurt him.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Street hires

The Riddle instructor to whom I refer was hired at ASA as an FO. I'm sure that being from Georgia didn't hurt him.

We try to bring those guys to DFW as much as possible to give them some exposure to reality.

 

[CFI'er]

Internship Is FREE PFT

The suckers that work for free at ^&*%$# Airlines still is a form of PFT. They are willing to work for free in hopes of landing that right seat. The interners pary with their time and the airlines are LOL.

 

[secks]

I'm confused.

An awful lot of people on this board claim to hate "PFT" (Pay For Training) and everything associated with it. It sounds to me like what you guys are really upset about is "PFJ" (Pay For a Job).

Agreed. The issue here is "PFJ", not "PFT". Why people use "PFT" as an all-encompassing term is beyond me. While we're on the subject, the "two-prong test" is a completely contrived method of sniffing out PFJ practices. Scrap that, too.

Originally posted by CFI'er

The suckers that work for free at ^&*%$# Airlines still is a form of PFT. They are willing to work for free in hopes of landing that right seat. The interners pary with their time and the airlines are LOL.

According to the two-prong test, that's not PFT.

Seriously, though, working for free at an airline is basically PFJ. When an intern works for free, he basically pays for the job. This deprives better-qualified pilots of a job. Of course, if you consider this PFJ, then medical residency also falls under that category. Medical students who willingly endure low wages and long hours could be seen as "whoring" themselves out in order to earn a lucrative job.

 

[enigma]

Agreed. The issue here is "PFJ", not "PFT". Why people use "PFT" as an all-encompassing term is beyond me.

PFT is used because the scumbags that invented the process know that they had to mislead people in order to convince them to do it. Then the scumbags that bought their way into a job that they were unqualified for under any other criteria used the term as a way to justify their actions. It's all pretty simple actually.

enigma

 

[CH47Driver]

I'm also a military helo driver and have read many of the threads about PFT, it's definitely a passionate issue and rightfully so, we're talking about the salaries we're either working for or hope to work for. I was considering PFT for many of the reasons that h46driver mentioned before reading all the PFT threads. After all, I've already spent almost 2,000 hours in a very demanding cockpit and sacrificed a lot of the personal freedoms that many civilians take for granted (like living where I want). Why not take the money I've saved and jumpstart my civilian flying career? While it's very tempting, I can't see caving to some greedy, penny-pinching airline CEO who thinks my experience isn't worth a salary just so he can cut his labor costs and improve his bottom line. After reading numerous posts on this forum, the civilian helo job market is looking a lot more attractive. I'll always dream about flying for an airline, but I think I'll earn my FW ratings in my off time and try for the dream later after I can see how the whole salary and career progression issues shake out in the end.

By the way, I had to laugh because the guy who started this thread checked out of the debate (and the aviation job market altogether) about 10 posts ago, but like other PFT threads, this one just keeps going.

 

[enigma]

By the way, I had to laugh because the guy who started this thread checked out of the debate (and the aviation job market altogether) about 10 posts ago, but like other PFT threads, this one just keeps going.

PFT threads keep me out of bars.

Good Choice, hopefully you will get to an airline one day and the pay will be at mainline rates instead of of lowest bidder rates.

good luck, and thanks for serving us all.
enigma

 

[blade230]

Hey enigma, I got a question for you,

how can you say that the many pilots that PFT'd in the 90's, ALL were unqualified? Many that PFT'd had several thousand hours. Some more than you, I'm sure. Just a question about what you are stating, not a PFT question. Also, it is widely agreed upon, moral issues and personal feelings asside, some PFT pilots are good sticks. How are these guys unqualified?

 

[center]

blade230,

Please check your private messages.

C.