Why isn't there a union for the Regionals??

[dojetdriver]

Yup, I used to do it all the time in an XR. My pairing on day four would be YYZ-IAH, IAH-YYZ, YYZ-CLE. On those two legs to/from YYZ, we found "studying" was the best method to combat boredom. One time we were going from YYZ-IAH and had to divert to Tyler, TX for fuel after our routing got fooled with due to weather. Definetely not a regional airline route.

CM

Or better yet, YYZ-IAH-GDL. Yep, we are just regional airline pilots, flying small hops. Hitting 3 countries in one day.

 

[regionaltard]

A Regional Pilots association?

It'd be fun to watch!

If you think the demographics and priorities of mainline pilots are problematic...you'd see a real conflict between the "moving's" and "staying's" at the regional level.

If decent representation was able to significantly reduce the a$$rape coefficient in the equation I think that the volatility you've mentioned would be quite a bit lower. As long as there's an element of desperation involved in escaping the underclass management will continue to cash in.

 

[NuGuy]

A Regional Pilots association?

It'd be fun to watch!

If you think the demographics and priorities of mainline pilots are problematic...you'd see a real conflict between the "moving's" and "staying's" at the regional level.

Heyas Occam,

I got to watch that at two different places.

The irony was that the "Staying's" had the right idea. It was my fellow "leavings" who were more than willing to sell out.

Youth is wasted on the young....

Nu

 

[lookin4better]

Well, there are a couple problems with that...

First off, 110 seats or less? That is nationwide mainline narrowbody feed! That is not "regional" flying! That is "outsourced" flying and nothing else. CRJs flying 3-4 hour flights between major cities and major hubs is not regional by any sense of the word.

Secondly, it is in EVERYONE's best interest for the regionals to not survive, much less expand. We need these passengers flying on mainline birds.

One of the smartest things I have heard on FI....period

 

[regionaltard]

One of the smartest things I have heard on FI....period

Well, except for the fact that aircraft gauge will always be driven by economics rather than the wishes of pilots. Unless of course you're willing to acknowledge that the economics of the regional industry are in large part a construct of the wishes of pilots. The we're callin' the shots, u betcha.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The irony was that the "Staying's" had the right idea. It was my fellow "leavings" who were more than willing to sell out.

Youth is wasted on the young....

I agree. I don't have a problem with an "RAPA" per se. If the membership is willing to accept the trade-offs in terms of services available...in exchange for a more narrowly-focused set of Association objectives: Good for them!

The built-in problem is the same that ALPA has right now: Long-term priorities differ within the membership. Abandoning ALPA in the belief that everyone will magically share common goals under a new organization is foolish.

 

[Gandalf]

Quote: Originally Posted by DX Rick
No to menton the STL-JFK's. 2.5 hours.
CVG-HOU or CVG- MIA...in a 50 seater....all which mainline should be doing.

We shouldn't be doing anything more than 90 minutes.

Why? Because you said so? Because that's the way it was done in the past, so we should always do it that way? The airlines wouldn't be doing it this way if there wasn't money to be made.

Hoover, have you flown lately? How about out of the nations top airports? Been delayed? Hmmmm.....

Well, the reason for the massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutely ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the rj's. Plain and Simple.

Do I like flying them? Of course. Am I glad to have a job? You bet.

Sure, there might be money in it for the airlines in doing it this way. But at whose expense?

Mainline pilot salary is down. Regional pilot salaries are a joke - especially now that we ARE flying "mainline" routes.

In the past, regional airlines were looked at by most as a stepping stone to the majors. They still are. However, the numbers of pilots that are staying with their respective companies for a "career" at the regional level has increased. Why not - the instability of the industry has led to that.

However, if a regional airline is to be a place to stay and have a decent career - then the pay and retirement benefits should be competitive to the type of flying and routes flown by other carriers, no matter the type of aircraft flown.

By staying with a regional airline for your career, you are saying that aircraft size doesn't matter (which is Fine-no flame please!), then wouldn't it stand to reason that you would want to maximize your pay and benefits for that career?

There are of course QOL issues that may be better at a regional depending on your situation (money isn't everything), however QOL stuff varies at every company, in fact at every industry. Everyone has a different idea on what QOL things are most important to them.

However, we all generally agree on the amount that "we" should receive for our particular job.....An engineer at Apple and one at Microsoft may have different compensation and benefits, but OVERALL it will not be so different. And it certainly will not be below what is generally agreed on industry wide. Otherwise, for most of us QOL stuff will lose out to compensation.

Would I love to fly an 737? Sure! But NOT AT AN REGIONAL AIRLINE SALARY. That is what this industry is moving towards.

In the past when the regionals were flying mostly t-props and the route segments were short, it was acceptable to pay a pilot lower because they REALLY were "regional". The airlines COULD NOT bring in a 737 to podunk regional airport. But, that has all changed. The places where the airline could not bring in the 73, they can bring in an rj, or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.....

And while "we" would be remiss in not assisting the companies try to make a profit, there is a point where it has to stop.

You graduate from law school and get an entry level job at a law firm. You expect to get paid a certain salary. After 10 years of experience and after being your firms top lawyer(ie. Captain), you move. You go to a bigger, better firm expecting a salary that reflects your overall experience as a lawyer. Now, at the new firm you may not be handling the top cases until you get experience with that company(ie. First officer).......However, you would NOT expect to get paid what you got when you had just graduated law school.

Because of the way this industry pays its pilots - Having more rjs, rj operators, and rj pilots in the overall system LOWERS THE PAY of everyone. If we were paid based on overall experience then it wouldn't matter as much.

The airlines are posting great load factor numbers. However, the use of rjs has increased. The number of total aircraft in the system has greatly increased. But most importantly those aircraft are able to operate at the nations busiest airports, not mostly at podunk regional as in the past. This has created a huge strain on the system.

So, while some of you think that flying an rj sure does beat that C-172 flying, and it does........

Having an increasing nationwide rj fleet flying longer and longer routes does nothing for this industry......Except expand the egos of some........

 

[Caspian27]

Gandalf,

Great post. Couldn't have said it better.

C27

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Quote: Originally Posted by DX Rick
No to menton the STL-JFK's. 2.5 hours.
CVG-HOU or CVG- MIA...in a 50 seater....all which mainline should be doing.

We shouldn't be doing anything more than 90 minutes.



Hoover, have you flown lately? How about out of the nations top airports? Been delayed? Hmmmm.....

"Well, the reason for the massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutely ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the rj's. Plain and Simple."

Do I like flying them? Of course. Am I glad to have a job? You bet.

Sure, there might be money in it for the airlines in doing it this way. But at whose expense?

Mainline pilot salary is down. Regional pilot salaries are a joke - especially now that we ARE flying "mainline" routes.

In the past, regional airlines were looked at by most as a stepping stone to the majors. They still are. However, the numbers of pilots that are staying with their respective companies for a "career" at the regional level has increased. Why not - the instability of the industry has led to that.

However, if a regional airline is to be a place to stay and have a decent career - then the pay and retirement benefits should be competitive to the type of flying and routes flown by other carriers, no matter the type of aircraft flown.

By staying with a regional airline for your career, you are saying that aircraft size doesn't matter (which is Fine-no flame please!), then wouldn't it stand to reason that you would want to maximize your pay and benefits for that career?

There are of course QOL issues that may be better at a regional depending on your situation (money isn't everything), however QOL stuff varies at every company, in fact at every industry. Everyone has a different idea on what QOL things are most important to them.

However, we all generally agree on the amount that "we" should receive for our particular job.....An engineer at Apple and one at Microsoft may have different compensation and benefits, but OVERALL it will not be so different. And it certainly will not be below what is generally agreed on industry wide. Otherwise, for most of us QOL stuff will lose out to compensation.

Would I love to fly an 737? Sure! But NOT AT AN REGIONAL AIRLINE SALARY. That is what this industry is moving towards.

In the past when the regionals were flying mostly t-props and the route segments were short, it was acceptable to pay a pilot lower because they REALLY were "regional". The airlines COULD NOT bring in a 737 to podunk regional airport. But, that has all changed. The places where the airline could not bring in the 73, they can bring in an rj, or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.....

And while "we" would be remiss in not assisting the companies try to make a profit, there is a point where it has to stop.

You graduate from law school and get an entry level job at a law firm. You expect to get paid a certain salary. After 10 years of experience and after being your firms top lawyer(ie. Captain), you move. You go to a bigger, better firm expecting a salary that reflects your overall experience as a lawyer. Now, at the new firm you may not be handling the top cases until you get experience with that company(ie. First officer).......However, you would NOT expect to get paid what you got when you had just graduated law school.

Because of the way this industry pays its pilots - Having more rjs, rj operators, and rj pilots in the overall system LOWERS THE PAY of everyone. If we were paid based on overall experience then it wouldn't matter as much.

The airlines are posting great load factor numbers. However, the use of rjs has increased. The number of total aircraft in the system has greatly increased. But most importantly those aircraft are able to operate at the nations busiest airports, not mostly at podunk regional as in the past. This has created a huge strain on the system.

So, while some of you think that flying an rj sure does beat that C-172 flying, and it does........

Having an increasing nationwide rj fleet flying longer and longer routes does nothing for this industry......Except expand the egos of some........

Uhm, yeah...the "massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutly ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the RJ's. Plain and simple."



The fact that they haven't updated the majority of the ATC system since the 60's and are still using state of the art vacuum tube equipment has nothing at all to do with it...or the fact that the FAA doesn't have the budget to allow sufficient staffing so we can utilize PRM approaches(haven't been using them in SFO for a long time, even when conditions are ideal...we just get longer flow delays)...or the fact that they(the FAA)haven't even bothered trying to keep up with growth by adding additional runways or airports when the need has been obvious for many years...

All the delays can simply be attributed to the rj's...



NOT!!!!

 

[PCL_128]

Face facts. The delays in the Northeast are largely due to overcrowding caused by too many RJs. We certainly need to fix the other issues you mention, but the delays in the busiest markets in this country could be drastically reduced if a minimum number of seats per aircraft was specified for each slot at airports like LGA and DCA.

 

[DoinTime]

The fact that they haven't updated the majority of the ATC system since the 60's and are still using state of the art vacuum tube equipment has nothing at all to do with it...or the fact that the FAA doesn't have the budget to allow sufficient staffing so we can utilize PRM approaches(haven't been using them in SFO for a long time, even when conditions are ideal...we just get longer flow delays)...or the fact that they(the FAA)haven't even bothered trying to keep up with growth by adding additional runways or airports when the need has been obvious for many years...

All the delays can simply be attributed to the rj's...

NOT!!!!

Certainly the national airspace system is woefully out of date. That being said the FAA has never announced that there is a plan to fix the problem. We are currently dealing with a system that has finite capacity and airlines have exceeded that capacity.

The argument can always be made that technological improvements or staffing increases could alleviate the problem but who is going to pay for it? The airlines aren't going to pay and I'm certainly not willing to increase my taxes so airlines can reap the benefits.

If airlines want free reign over their scheduled capacity they need to step up to the plate and pay to fix the system. Until then the problems with chronic delays are their fault.

 

[Gandalf]

Hello? This is Earth Calling!

Uhm, yeah...the "massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutly ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the RJ's. Plain and simple."



The fact that they haven't updated the majority of the ATC system since the 60's and are still using state of the art vacuum tube equipment has nothing at all to do with it...or the fact that the FAA doesn't have the budget to allow sufficient staffing so we can utilize PRM approaches(haven't been using them in SFO for a long time, even when conditions are ideal...we just get longer flow delays)...or the fact that they(the FAA)haven't even bothered trying to keep up with growth by adding additional runways or airports when the need has been obvious for many years...

All the delays can simply be attributed to the rj's...



NOT!!!!

So, yes there are other things contributing to the delays. But, what are you saying....That the rjs aren't MOST of the problem???? WTF???

Where do you fly? Have you even flown anywhere East of the Mississippi? WTF????

Rjs are everywhere....Simple economics.....A major can contract out its flying to a regional, serve the same routes out of the same MAJOR airports (ORD, ATL, LGA, EWR, IAD, etc.....), fly the rjs on 3:30-4:30 hour flights (in an rj - WTF!?) and have lower costs. Fuel and Labor. A regional airline crew costs a lot cheaper than a mainline crew.

Meanwhile, in order to get the number of seats between 2 city pairs from the MAJOR airports in the US., the major has to/or can - run more rj flights.

That means THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT FLYING BETWEEN ORD AND X, ATL AND X, LGA AND X, ETC. ETC. ETC.

MORE AIRCRAFT (RJS) THAT THE ATC SYSTEM CAN'T HANDLE.

Yes, the ATC system needs overhaul, however the ones contributing to the problem (THE AIRLINES) are not willing to fix the problem ($$$$$). BECAUSE THEIR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO THE SHAREHOLDERS. AND BY RUNNING MULTIPLE RJS(EVEN WITH DELAYS) IT IS CHEAPER THAN FLYING MAINLINE FLIGHTS.

So, call your congressman and lobby to get more $$ for the FAA, so that it can be overhauled. Meanwhile airlines will continue to add rj capacity to the skies.

By adding more rj capacity, we drive the OVERALL salary range of the industry DOWN.

So, although fixing the ATC is a valid and important concern, the unchecked proliferation of rjs in the US airspace system is the more important problem in todays industry. Whether you fix ATC or not, the delays will NOT go away with an increasing number of a/c (rjs) in the skies.

The regional airline has changed, as a direct result of the advent of the technology of the rj. The rj has allowed the majors to serve major markets at a lower cost to THEM. Although, that is a great thing in some respects.....because of the way the airline industry structures the pay for the pilots, the rj and regional flying should have limits placed on them. Otherwise we do a disservice to ALL.

 

[Avpilot]

I seem to remember expressjet doing Toronto to Houston?..Isnt that over 4 hrs??? Yikes!!!...Pass the gin & tonic for that ride!!! Better yet just get the tow bar and smash my skull in!....

You are correct...but that's not even the longest we do. Up until CAL made the blunder of giving us so many XRs, we did IAH-BOI, IAH-PSP, IAH-BFL, EWR-OKC, etc. I think we still do some of those. IAH-BOI-IAH was the best day trip...7:53 block.

Currently we still do some LAX-Mexico (usually QRO or BJX)-IAH redeyes. Those are some long flights. I think the Delta Connection LAX-Zijuatinejo is one of the longer ones now too.

We're doing the same types of routes the DC-9 guys used to do....thank God we're not bringing home $150/hr like they were....man that would suck.

Tim

 

[Nevets]

Maybe some genius has already thought of this, but why isn't there a Union that represents the regionals?? 110 seats or less, a union that looks out for the little guys??

You could call it RAPA, Regional Airlines Pilots Association. I'm sure someone has already thought of this, so why has it not worked??

just curious??

There is a union for regionals...its called ALPA.

By the way, the problem with congestion due to lack of runway capacity. It is not the job of airlines to increase runway capacity. This is the job of the federal governemnt. Just like automobile congestion between cities required the government to build highways, increased air traffice requires the government to increase runway capacity. You don't see anyone telling the commuters and truckers not to travel in highways in places like Los Angeles, so you shouldnt see anyone telling anybody when where they should fly.

 

[DoinTime]

You don't see anyone telling the commuters and truckers not to travel in highways in places like Los Angeles, so you shouldnt see anyone telling anybody when where they should fly.

Are you saying that delays are not common on I40 westbound heading out of LA during rush hour?

The difference between airspace and the freeways is that Congress is put on high alert when some a-hole puts 2+ hours of footage on YouTube while they are trapped in the back of an RJ. Seemingly, nobody cares if I'm trapped in LA traffic for 3 hours just trying to get heck out of that wacked city.

 

[Nevets]

Are you saying that delays are not common on I40 westbound heading out of LA during rush hour?

The difference between airspace and the freeways is that Congress is put on high alert when some a-hole puts 2+ hours of footage on YouTube while they are trapped in the back of an RJ. Seemingly, nobody cares if I'm trapped in LA traffic for 3 hours just trying to get heck out of that wacked city.

I probably did a poor job of making my point. But yes, there are delays on highways in all major cities in this country. My point being that in the case of highways, you don't hear anyone saying that commuters and truckers should stop driving in certain cities or drive at different hours. The interstate highways are the result of the government meeting the demands of commerce (not saying that there is no highway congestion, just saying that there was a time before interstate highways and even railroads). They need to do the same with runway capacity. Government should facilitate commerce not the other way around!

 

[lookin4better]

Gandalf,

Great post. Couldn't have said it better.

C27

I second that! Gandlalf and PCL are dead on.....Too many RJ!

Dont get all puffy chested over this....it is TRUE and its a FACT...its time to shrink the regionals back down to what they were initally made for

 

[Nevets]

I second that! Gandlalf and PCL are dead on.....Too many RJ!

Dont get all puffy chested over this....it is TRUE and its a FACT...its time to shrink the regionals back down to what they were initally made for

You mean not enough runway capacity. Its the government's responsibility to facilitate commerce. Not the other way around. That is why no one says there are too many trucks on the road.

 

[PCL_128]

You mean not enough runway capacity. Its the government's responsibility to facilitate commerce. Not the other way around. That is why no one says there are too many trucks on the road.

There are plenty of runways and gates for the right size of airplanes. Nobody says that there are too many trucks on the road because you don't see trucking companies outsourcing their business to 100 guys with pickup trucks instead of two guys with 18-wheelers. That's the equivalent of what the airlines have done. There is absolutely no excuse for running RJs out of places like LGA and DCA to hub airports.

 

[Nevets]

There are plenty of runways and gates for the right size of airplanes. Nobody says that there are too many trucks on the road because you don't see trucking companies outsourcing their business to 100 guys with pickup trucks instead of two guys with 18-wheelers. That's the equivalent of what the airlines have done. There is absolutely no excuse for running RJs out of places like LGA and DCA to hub airports.

All Im saying is that its not the government's business to tell private sector companies where and what they can and cant fly at certain hours of the day. Again, if the market demands it, the government should facilitate that commerce, NOT the other way around.

Plain and simple, there is not enough runway capacity.

 

[PCL_128]

All Im saying is that its not the government's business to tell private sector companies where and what they can and cant fly at certain hours of the day. Again, if the market demands it, the government should facilitate that commerce, NOT the other way around.

Plain and simple, there is not enough runway capacity.

And where are you going to put these numerous new runways and gates? Been to LGA lately? Not exactly a lot of space. How 'bout DCA? Same problem. MDW? We barely have enough room to clear the houses at the end of the runway on takeoff.

Personally, I'm a big fan of regulation in aviation. The airlines are now the backbone of the national economy. Allowing the airlines to behave in whatever manner they choose and clog up the limited space we have with their ridiculous little RJs that are merely a tool of breaking mainline labor is absurd. I'd love to see a return of the CAB and a completely regulated industry. If the airlines continue with their stupidity, then that's exactly what we'll see happen years down the road when they've completely crippled the transportation system with more and more RJs.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

There is a union for regionals...its called ALPA.

By the way, the problem with congestion due to lack of runway capacity. It is not the job of airlines to increase runway capacity. This is the job of the federal governemnt. Just like automobile congestion between cities required the government to build highways, increased air traffice requires the government to increase runway capacity. You don't see anyone telling the commuters and truckers not to travel in highways in places like Los Angeles, so you shouldnt see anyone telling anybody when where they should fly.

Exactly!!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

And where are you going to put these numerous new runways and gates? Been to LGA lately? Not exactly a lot of space. How 'bout DCA? Same problem. MDW? We barely have enough room to clear the houses at the end of the runway on takeoff.

Personally, I'm a big fan of regulation in aviation. The airlines are now the backbone of the national economy. Allowing the airlines to behave in whatever manner they choose and clog up the limited space we have with their ridiculous little RJs that are merely a tool of breaking mainline labor is absurd. I'd love to see a return of the CAB and a completely regulated industry. If the airlines continue with their stupidity, then that's exactly what we'll see happen years down the road when they've completely crippled the transportation system with more and more RJs.

Instead of adding airports and capacity that is much needed, we've closed dozens and dozens of airports every year for the last several decades...When opportunity knocked and military fields became available for commercial use, time after time the ball was dropped and the ever diminishing resource was squandered to make way for more shopping centers, or houses, or commercial and office space! This has played out across the nation, and once these former airfields and wide open areas that were once available to allow expansion are wasted they are gone forever...this is a foolish waste of existing resources, and the short sighted decisions to continue allowing it have been going on for far too long!

 

[PCL_128]

Instead of adding airports and capacity that is much needed, we've closed dozens and dozens of airports every year for the last several decades...When opportunity knocked and military fields became available for commercial use, time after time the ball was dropped and the ever diminishing resource was squandered to make way for more shopping centers, or houses, or commercial and office space! This has played out across the nation, and once these former airfields and wide open areas that were once available to allow expansion are wasted they are gone forever...this is a foolish waste of existing resources, and the short sighted decisions to continue allowing it have been going on for far too long!

Most passengers, especially business passengers, don't want to fly to secondary airports. Business travelers want to fly in to LGA. They don't want to fly to ISP, JFK, or anywhere else. They want LGA. So the airlines give them that service, but they're too cheap to pay mainline pilots, so they outsource the flying to a bunch of RJs. Adding secondary airports doesn't solve the problem. Unless you can add concrete to LGA, then the congestion will not ease, because passengers will continue to demand their service to the airport right near the center of American (and world) business. The same goes for DCA, MDW, ORD, BOS, etc... These are the airports that passengers want service to. Adding concrete at new airports outside of these areas will not do much to ease congestion. At best, it might be a 5-year solution, allowing the small amount of leisure passengers to use those new airports. After that short period, the business demand will have grown to the point where the same problem rears its ugly head again. The only solution is appropriate regulation of slots, aircraft size, etc...

 

[Nevets]

And where are you going to put these numerous new runways and gates? Been to LGA lately? Not exactly a lot of space. How 'bout DCA? Same problem. MDW? We barely have enough room to clear the houses at the end of the runway on takeoff.

Personally, I'm a big fan of regulation in aviation. The airlines are now the backbone of the national economy. Allowing the airlines to behave in whatever manner they choose and clog up the limited space we have with their ridiculous little RJs that are merely a tool of breaking mainline labor is absurd. I'd love to see a return of the CAB and a completely regulated industry. If the airlines continue with their stupidity, then that's exactly what we'll see happen years down the road when they've completely crippled the transportation system with more and more RJs.

There were and are many current and ex-military fields that could easily be converted. Being from SoCal, El Toro MCAS, Norton AFB, Los Alamitos AAF, Palmdale AF Plant, George AFB, March AFB, Camp Pendleton MCAS, North Island NAS, Imperial Beach NAS, and Mirimar NAS come to mind. Many people in the LA area drive to "secondary" airports like Ontario, Burbank, Santa Ana, and Long Beach to avoid the congestion in LAX. SWA has been capitalizing on this for years with BUR, OAK, SJC, ONT, BWI, MHT, PVD, DAL, HOU, ISP. Plus many airports do have the land to build more runways like IAH (ATL for example just got a new runway).

You are getting two separate issues confused. The air traffic congestion and the airline industry's use of the "RJ." Trust me, I wish that the mainline airlines would have flown ALL jet aircraft and only regionals to operate turboprops.

The solution is not to impede the free market by having our government tell us what is best for us but to facilitate the free market forces (by the way, deregulation has created more jobs including pilot positions by allowing more people the ability to fly). Its just our inept government not keeping up with free market forces.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

There were and are many ex-military fields that come to mind. Being from SoCal, El Toro MCAS comes to mind. Many people in the LA area drive to "secondary" airports like Ontario, Burbank, Santa Ana, and Long Beach to avoid the congestion in LAX. SWA has been capitalizing on this for years with BUR, OAK, SJC, ONT, BWI, MHT, PVD, DAL, HOU, ISP. Plus many airports do have the land to build more runways (ATL for example just got a new runway).

You are getting two separate issues confused. The air traffic congestion and the airline industry's use of the "RJ." Trust me, I wish that the mainline airlines would have flown ALL jet aircraft and only regionals to operate turboprops.

The solution is not to impede the free market by having our government tell us what is best for us but to facilitate the free market forces (by the way, deregulation has created more jobs including pilot positions by allowing more people the ability to fly). Its just our inept government not keeping up with free market forces.

Then there's the decades long stalled out debate about what to do about SAN...a too short, single runway in the 6th largest city in the country. They've spent millions of our tax dollars for one study after another that came up with numerous options, only to do NOTHING about it!

 

[Nevets]

Then there's the decades long stalled out debate about what to do about SAN...a too short, single runway in the 6th largest city in the country. They've spent millions of our tax dollars for one study after another that came up with numerous options, only to do NOTHING about it!

I edited my last post with a solution to that problem.

 

[PCL_128]

There were and are many current and ex-military fields that could easily be converted. Being from SoCal, El Toro MCAS, Norton AFB, Los Alamitos AAF, Palmdale AF Plant, George AFB, March AFB, Camp Pendleton MCAS, North Island NAS, Imperial Beach NAS, and Mirimar NAS come to mind. Many people in the LA area drive to "secondary" airports like Ontario, Burbank, Santa Ana, and Long Beach to avoid the congestion in LAX. SWA has been capitalizing on this for years with BUR, OAK, SJC, ONT, BWI, MHT, PVD, DAL, HOU, ISP. Plus many airports do have the land to build more runways like IAH (ATL for example just got a new runway).

There are certainly some markets that can make use of secondary airports. My airline utilizes CAK instead of CLE and HOU instead of IAH, but those are limited circumstances. The SoCal market is about the only extremely-high-density market that works as you're suggesting. The Northeast market simply won't work that way. Business travelers demand LGA, BOS, DCA, BWI, etc... They won't accept substitutes, and these are the markets that need the relief the most, not Houston and Dallas.

The solution is not to impede the free market by having our government tell us what is best for us but to facilitate the free market forces (by the way, deregulation has created more jobs including pilot positions by allowing more people the ability to fly). Its just our inept government not keeping up with free market forces.

It always pains me to see an ALPA rep defending deregulation. I know you must have read Flying the Line, Vol II at least once. Deregulation is the singular catalyst that has sent this profession down the sh*&er. The sooner we reregulate, the better.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

So, yes there are other things contributing to the delays. But, what are you saying....That the rjs aren't MOST of the problem???? WTF???

Where do you fly? Have you even flown anywhere East of the Mississippi? WTF????

Rjs are everywhere....Simple economics.....A major can contract out its flying to a regional, serve the same routes out of the same MAJOR airports (ORD, ATL, LGA, EWR, IAD, etc.....), fly the rjs on 3:30-4:30 hour flights (in an rj - WTF!?) and have lower costs. Fuel and Labor. A regional airline crew costs a lot cheaper than a mainline crew.

Meanwhile, in order to get the number of seats between 2 city pairs from the MAJOR airports in the US., the major has to/or can - run more rj flights.

That means THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT FLYING BETWEEN ORD AND X, ATL AND X, LGA AND X, ETC. ETC. ETC.

MORE AIRCRAFT (RJS) THAT THE ATC SYSTEM CAN'T HANDLE.

Yes, the ATC system needs overhaul, however the ones contributing to the problem (THE AIRLINES) are not willing to fix the problem ($$$$$). BECAUSE THEIR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO THE SHAREHOLDERS. AND BY RUNNING MULTIPLE RJS(EVEN WITH DELAYS) IT IS CHEAPER THAN FLYING MAINLINE FLIGHTS.

So, call your congressman and lobby to get more $$ for the FAA, so that it can be overhauled. Meanwhile airlines will continue to add rj capacity to the skies.

By adding more rj capacity, we drive the OVERALL salary range of the industry DOWN.

So, although fixing the ATC is a valid and important concern, the unchecked proliferation of rjs in the US airspace system is the more important problem in todays industry. Whether you fix ATC or not, the delays will NOT go away with an increasing number of a/c (rjs) in the skies.

The regional airline has changed, as a direct result of the advent of the technology of the rj. The rj has allowed the majors to serve major markets at a lower cost to THEM. Although, that is a great thing in some respects.....because of the way the airline industry structures the pay for the pilots, the rj and regional flying should have limits placed on them. Otherwise we do a disservice to ALL.

Yeah, that's it, I've never been East of the Mississippi...since I used to fly corporate all over the planet, I think it's safe to say in addition to flying East of the Mississippi, I've more likely than not been a lot of places you haven't!


What I was trying to point out to you was that RJ's are not soley to blame for delays, in fact it's far from the only problem...In addition to the antiquated FAA equipment, and lack of spending on infrastructure, you might want to open your eyes to the world around you and acknowledge the rapid growth of corporate aviation and the huge increase in numbers from fractional operators that were barely a blip on the radar a decade ago!

 

[DoinTime]

I probably did a poor job of making my point. But yes, there are delays on highways in all major cities in this country. My point being that in the case of highways, you don't hear anyone saying that commuters and truckers should stop driving in certain cities or drive at different hours. The interstate highways are the result of the government meeting the demands of commerce (not saying that there is no highway congestion, just saying that there was a time before interstate highways and even railroads). They need to do the same with runway capacity. Government should facilitate commerce not the other way around!

The only time government should facilitate commerce is when the potential tax revenues exceed the construction costs. Airlines don't want to increase tax generating capacity. They want to increase frequencies and reduce gauge. There is no upside for system improvements from the government point of view.

The correlation between airtraffic congestion and highway congestion is really quite similar. In both situations increasing the amount of concrete available will likely address the problems. The problem is getting the concrete where people want it. Like PCL says above, nobody wants to go to ISP. They want to go to LGA and they don't have space for more concrete. Likewise, a new interstate across Death Valley would do little ease traffic in the LA basin.

Somehow people seem to accept supply and demand for their ground travel needs. If a certain route is unbearably congested they look for other routes, ride mass transit, carpool, or just don't go. This concept is lost on air travelers though who have the "entitlement" attitude that their $100 ticket should provide them a seemless travel experience.

FWIW: If my memory serves me right the interstate highway system was conceived for the use of the military and to provide jobs to a largely unemployed America. Either way, huge tax revenues have been generated from their construction.