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Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

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Publishers said:
Well he may not agree-- he has no benefits, only flies when they need him versus another guy, has to do all his own record keeping, most flights he is called for are weekends and holidays. No minimum guarantee, not even a promise of full time.

He has a type in the Challenger, over 1500 in type, and 5000 total
Again, if he is happy doing that then more power to him. There are probably a lot of guys that would pay money to fly his Challenger. Does that mean he should reduce his standards and work for less? There's always someone willing to do it cheaper in this business. You get what you negotiate. That's what we plan to do. Thanks for the opinion and lending us your expertise. Hey, wait a minute, did our MEC contact you for negotiating advice?
 
Majik said:
OK Yaaak, what benchmark do you suggest we use for a comparative baseline?
You say I can't use other fractionals, because they don't use collective bargaining and that their pay is based off of ours.
You say I can't base it off part 91 pilots flying the same type plane as I fly because they don't use collective bargaining to establish their wages.

So who are the other "apples" that identically match NJA pilot's situation and would be acceptable to use for your benchmark?
The other fracs dont use collective bargaining, but at least they are fracs with a similar "fly for revenue" economic model. That's comparing apples to apples...some being red and some green.

You can "base" your comparison off Part 91 operators if you want, and the lack of collective bargaining has nothing to do with this being "apples to oranges" (that aspect just provides the irony). It's apples to oranges because your job doesn't exist in a structure even remotely resembling a Part 91 flight department in terms of where the money comes from, who you work for and are beholden to, or what justifies it's existence. You and the "owner" in back aren't fellow employees of the same company.

If anything, you're closer to charter or management company pilots , because basically all an "owner" in your frac world does is contract for block time with an outside company to provide transport services, with attached tax advantages (thank the lobbyists for that one). Go outside your niche market in terms of aircraft use per year, and even those advantages evaporate. You're slaves to the direct generation of revenue by flying your airplanes and charging management fees to make a profit after paying every employee that works to make your endeavor run...No Part 91 operation ever generates direct revenue or functions in that way.

But I do understand the desire to use Part 91 flight departments as a comparative measure..don't blame you there (corporate pay to top off the benefit of airline schedules and crewing, gateway flexibility, and support systems/personnel...hope you get it!)..but except for the superficiality of flying the same types of equipment and parking on the same ramps, there really is no basis to use them as a yardstick.

What you're up against is this....if you become as expensive for whatever reason (and like it or not, salaries do play a part in figuring out expenses) as a corporate flight department, you wind up shrinking that niche you cater to...those that realize the economic advantages. If you do that, then there's no reason for them to sign those contracts or keep you around in the first place.

If they all did that of course...dumped you... you'd have a lot more Part 91 flight departments around and you could go find a job with one of them....just don't go to work for peanuts! Consult that NBAA Benchmark survey you've finally got in your hands (because it would be applicable in reality instead of just the fantasy like we have here), but learn from your past mistakes, and consult it BEFORE you agree to take the job.
 
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Here is an interesting equation for you Mr Cat...


If I take NBAA pay for a Citation X and a G-IV for any year and percentile... then divide I get a ratio of about .89.

If I multiply that ratio times NJI G-IV pay.... I get a lot more than I am making now. In fact I am about 40K short.
 
Take this question back to Capital Hill with you "SkyGirl", "What is it when you make someone work for no wages,....Indentured slavery?" So what is it when a company requires you to pay to work?... Personnaly I'd rather be a slave...

A little insight here. This is exactly what has been going on in the aviation industry for the last 5-10 years. The problem here is that no one has questioned the basic constitutionallity of this practice? Well...what do you think....Companies like, oh, I don't know....COMAIR, dba, Delta Airlines....GULFSTREAM INTERNATIONAL....PENNICAL, dba NWA....Yes the one that just crashed a 50 seat Regional Jet in Northwest Airlines paint scheme....The list is loooong....

So what does all this mean? What my brothers at NJ are trying to negotiate on is simply a "fair deal". Do you understand that concept? I don't mean to sound tart here I actually mean that. Do you understand? The problem is a systemic cancer that somehow crawled into the aviation industry years ago simply by greedy cargo operations and fly by night people pushers. What fueled it is the sad fact that we love our job. We all love to fly. Yes, ALL of us. But what the new pilots didn't understand, is their effect on the BIG PICTURE. Pilots are by nature a bit egotistic. To believe that a few new-commers would change the pay structures of a hundred or so employers would be a hard thing for any industry to swallow. So here we are. Its hard to buy a car when the salesman already knows what you will pay....As in all ecosystems, Darwin prooved that evolution will play out. So will the 55-60 year old Captains at the majors. Last time I checked there were 50-60% more aircraft flying for the majors than any other....So only time will tell...


Yes....time will tell....
 
All right, I'm about a bottle of wine deep, and I know I'm gonna regret this, but:

I've been following this Netjets thing for awhile, and hell, I'm not knowledgeble enough to make any kind of helpful comment. And lord knows I'm not in any position to help the pilots' situation any. But I will say this:

Any Netjets pilot overnighting in Austin gets a free beer on me. Period. If I can't get you a good TA, at least I can buy you a beer. All I ask in return is a small tidbit on info on the plane you fly. Deal? :D
 
flyingforfood "What is it when you make someone work for no wages said:
That's a hard question, and figuring it out will be like.....Rocket surgery.
 
Adding to the list of QOL problems.

rajflyboy said:
It Ain't all about the money folks. Lifestyle and work rules are a big part of the problems with this contract!!!!!!
I couldn't agree more! I read your list earlier in the thread and I'd like to add a few more quality of life problems to it.

Pilots must be available to the company by 2pm of their last day off.

Camping ? Hiking? Sorry, not possible. Travelling? Better be on the phone at 2pm or rearrange your schedule. These are my families interests, others have the same problem accomodating theirs. Whose definition of DAY OFF does that fit?? What happens when you talk to them at 2pm? You could be put into rest to come out by midnight....and that DAY OFF just got uglier! No No No

Pilots to do a portion of Recurrent training at home--FOR FREE!

At the wages offered? Hardly! Hard as it may be for all of US to believe, not everyone has a computer and/or internet access. Now those things are a job requirement? I can see benefits for both pilots and the company in this idea, but these are real concerns that must be addressed in the NEXT TA.

Even the lawyer admitted that there is a huge loophole in the scope clause.

Even had the pay been great,it does no good if you lose your job. NJA pilots have helped to build the business. Job security is a fairness issue. A stronger negotiating team will fight for protection of the pilotforce.

SkyGirl, none of the NJ pilots/wives that I've spoken to begrudge ANY other pilots a fair salary. We'd encourage all the rest of you to try to improve your situation, as well. But let's face it, there IS safety and strength in numbers. If a movement to raise wages throughout the industry needs to happen, who is in the best position to go first?

A rising tide lifts all boats.
Netjetwife
 
Netjet Wife >> Your real into this contract deal!

I have finally realized it is a waist of time to worry about it anymore. Not much we can do except vote no for contract and vote no to current MEC. Then the cards will be displayed and we will see what everyone has. Not keeping grass grow under the feet is a good idea too. Exploring other options for work is a good idea at this time.
 
Skygirl, here is what I think of SEC filings:

From TheStreet.com http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/comment/detox/10189308.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

Buffett Insurance Deals Warrant Spitzer Scrutiny

By Peter Eavis
Senior Columnist
10/21/2004 3:00 PM EDT

If Eliot Spitzer really wants to clean up the insurance industry, he should look into an insurance-like product that has been used again and again to cook companies' books.


Financial reinsurance is the name most frequently given to the product. It has been sold by some of the biggest names in the insurance business -- including companies run by Warren Buffett. It has played a key role in masking weaknesses at a number of companies that have later collapsed, leaving huge, previously undisclosed losses and depriving ordinary people of coverage.
======================================================

What would Eliot Spitzer find if he should look at Fictional Ownership? I don't know... But I am not impressed with the numbers reported one way or another....

Jet Pilots being paid less than BusDrivers is an intolerable situation and I will vote NO every time I see a pay proposal like that again....
 
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netjetwife said:
I couldn't agree more! I read your list earlier in the thread and I'd like to add a few more quality of life problems to it.
Netjetwife
Of course... you always have something more to say don't you.

netjetwife said:
Pilots must be available to the company by 2pm of their last day off. Pilots to do a portion of Recurrent training at home
Now by "Pilots"... do you mean people who ACTUALLY work for Netjets?

netjetwife said:
Camping ? Hiking? Sorry, not possible. Travelling? Better be on the phone at 2pm or rearrange your schedule. These are my families interests, others have the same problem accomodating theirs. Whose definition of DAY OFF does that fit?? What happens when you talk to them at 2pm? You could be put into rest to come out by midnight....and that DAY OFF just got uglier! No No No
You're wasting hundreds of useless hours on the internet 28 hours a day, so why are scheduling issues even of concern to you?

netjetwife said:
At the wages offered? Hardly! Hard as it may be for all of US to believe, not everyone has a computer and/or internet access. Now those things are a job requirement? I can see benefits for both pilots and the company in this idea, but these are real concerns that must be addressed in the NEXT TA.
Wow... that sure was a mouthful. Another example of the use of the term "US" used by someone who isn't employed by Netjets. Also, I find it interesting that your delusions have led to you making assumptions about what is good and what is bad for the Pilots who ACTUALLY work at Netjets. Now, you're already making decisions about the NEXT TA.

netjetwife said:
Even had the pay been great,it does no good if you lose your job. NJA pilots have helped to build the business. Job security is a fairness issue. A stronger negotiating team will fight for protection of the pilotforce..
Well, at least there is a true statement. "NJA pilots have helped build the business". I see nothing about internet noodge wives however.

netjetwife said:
SkyGirl, none of the NJ pilots/wives that I've spoken to begrudge ANY other pilots a fair salary. We'd encourage all the rest of you to try to improve your situation, as well. But let's face it, there IS safety and strength in numbers. If a movement to raise wages throughout the industry needs to happen, who is in the best position to go first?..
How many pilots have you spoken too? 2 or 3. LOL! BTW - Are their wives as delusional as you are that they get to vote and decide on the TA as well? LOL!
I also see you are back to liberally using the term "We'd".


netjetwife said:
A rising tide lifts all boats.
Netjetwife
And a working wife can help pay the bills.

Les Paul
 
rajflyboy said:
It Ain't all about the money folks. Lifestyle and work rules are a big part of the problems with this contract!!!!!!
Hmmmm... Let's see... What's wrong with the TA......

Ok! Let's start with...

Scope and merger language

Gateways/RCAs

Scheduling

Compensation (or lack thereof)

Hours of service

Use of CVRs for disciplinary action

The shear number of LOUs used to rewrite the contract before it's even voted in thereby hiding more crappy language behind the body of the contract document... LOUs are supposed to be used to add, clarify or update contract sections after the main body is ratified...

This TA 1st attempt is an abomination.
 
Daveman

Well your right, probably not a pilot. Bought a Cherokee 180 in 1971, traded that for an Arrow, traded that for an Aztec, and traded that for a Turbo Arrow and added a Cessna 402. I also flew the company King Air 90, King Air 100, and Citation I SP. In my work, I had the opportunity to fly stuff from 747's to An 124's to the Goodyear blimp. I owned a commercial aircraft leasing business which leased 727's and Dc9's, a flight attendant training school, worked on the certification project of several 121 air carriers including supplying a professional certification crew. I published AviationCareer magazine, worked with NATA and NBAA on issues, and remain in the business.
What could I possible know about this business?????
 
FlyLow >> You got it. All that stuff Sucks ......and this contract needs to go down in flames because of it.

Salary is only a part of the issues here.
 
rajflyboy said:
Netjet Wife >> Your real into this contract deal!

I have finally realized it is a waist of time to worry about it anymore. Not much we can do except vote no for contract and vote no to current MEC. Then the cards will be displayed and we will see what everyone has. Not keeping grass grow under the feet is a good idea too. Exploring other options for work is a good idea at this time.
Or.... You could volunteer your time with the new group and take more of an active role in forming your future rather than settling fore what is given to you...
 
Les Paul said:
And a working wife can help pay the bills.

Les Paul
Yeah. Bbut what happened to the days when a pilot could support his/her family without the spouse HAVING to provide a second income. I sure would like to have at least 1 parent home with the children... husband or wife.
 
Publishers said:
What could I possible know about this business?????
All that experience and only 1500 hours TT?? With all of the shuttle missions you've flown I'm surprised to see such a low number.... unless you were flying the desk as a management monkey all those years and pretending to be someone who flies for a living. There is nothing like a Chief Pilot who get's out of the office every once in a while to reconnect with his roots... just one of the guys!! Yeah right.

And SMELI to boot??
 
FLYLOW22 said:
Yeah. Bbut what happened to the days when a pilot could support his/her family without the spouse HAVING to provide a second income. I sure would like to have at least 1 parent home with the children... husband or wife.
I agree with you.

My point is/has been that this "Netjetswife" person is constantly championing themselves as the savior of the world, while in actuality, they are nothing but an internet addicted pimple.

Anyone who constantly has to tell everyone how much they "accomplish' and how good they are.... probably are in all reality lazy, and unmotivated, as it is much easier to do nothing all day, and CLAIM to be working and supporting.

Netjetswife sitting in front of their computer monitor as much as s/he, addicted to fantasy chat, is in the REAL world accomplishing nothing for Netjets, so it is a real stretch to believe s/he is really doing anything but typing words on their keyboard.

S/he needs to get off the internet and go out and DO things that really make a difference.

Les Paul
 
Les Paul said:
S/he needs to get off the internet and go out and DO things that really make a difference.

Les Paul
Well, maybe.... maybe not. How do you know that Netjetwife's job ISN'T computer based??
 
Les Paul,
You may think we NJA folks are a bunch of losers, don't have a chance to improve our situation, are crazy for trying, and you criticize us for spending so much time on the computer talking about an issue that we are directly involved with. But what does that say about you? You are spending dang near as much time on the computer trying to counter everything NetJetsWife types. You ain't no fractional pilot and don't have a dog in this hunt, yet here you are, day after day, hour after hour, spending your time with a bunch of people whose ideas you so obviously disagree with. You don't even provide any substance to your side of this issue; just basic negativity. I gotta ask, what's your obsession with fractional pilots. Why is it so wrong for her but you see nothing strange about spending hours of your own free time countering every keystroke she types. What's up with that? Seems kinda trippy to me. What's going on in your life that makes this the best use of your free time?
 

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