Why is helicopter time ingored?

[Oh-ryan]

Why do helos have to taxi to/from helo pads or runways. I understand if they are executing a SID or have just completed an IFR approach. I get a chuckle everytime I see it when the guy is on a VFR flight plan. I understand you can't have helos springing up all over the place whenever they feel like it, but come on... why does ATC make it complicated... when they ask for clearance give it to them so they can get the heck out of there. Don't make me "give way to the Bell 212 taxiing on foxtrot"

 

[Cobra]

Why do helos have to taxi to/from helo pads or runways. I understand if they are executing a SID or have just completed an IFR approach. I get a chuckle everytime I see it when the guy is on a VFR flight plan. I understand you can't have helos springing up all over the place whenever they feel like it, but come on... why does ATC make it complicated... when they ask for clearance give it to them so they can get the heck out of there. Don't make me "give way to the Bell 212 taxiing on foxtrot"

Well, at times 48,000 pounds of thrust can sometimes be abit much for certain objects while air taxiing

 

[Quimby]

I worked for Air Logistics. They didn't have a problem with my fixed wing experience. Neither one of the regionals I worked for had problems with my sling wing time. Majors have been a different story (CAL seems to be the most friendly of all-at least for military rotary types).

I flight instructed to build my initial starch wing time. Bouncing around in cessna 152's and 172's doesn't even compare with the rotary wing experiences I have encountered. That is: From a technical standpoint, the amount of SA that is required, and the high degree of CRM and crew coordination that is required. Hand flying an ILS in a light airplane is a piece of cake compared with flying an ILS in a rotary wing aircraft.

For some reason outfits like SWA or AA seems to think that doing multiple traffic patterns in a Cessna 152 is better time than flying night time combat missions, looking through a 1.5"x1" display positioned over a single eyeball and having that as your sole source to fly the aircraft with, and in the mean time trying to not fly into your wingman or the ground while trying to shoot the bad guy and not the good guy. Oh, and if those aren't enough compound complications, did I mention this thing was a helicopter too?

OH, and for you guys who didn't get the jist of the thread; nobody here is saying that helo time should count the same as Part 121 turbojet time. But come' on, Cessna 152 time being counted as total time and not decent helo time? Maybe I could understand this if a guy was giving $20 dollar helo rides in a Bell 47 at the yearly county carnival and that is what the bulk of his helo time consisted of.

This pervasive mindset is pretty dam stupid if you ask me.

Do you really think anyone is getting job interviews & offers (at AA & SWA in your example) because of some extra TT from flying t & go's years ago?

Come on now, I know you know this industry better than that....

 

[Thedude]

For some reason outfits like SWA or AA seems to think that doing multiple traffic patterns in a Cessna 152

I seem to remember that the scantron I filled out for AA back in '98 had a breakout for helo time and little airplane time too. That was a few beers ago but I am pretty sure, I am correct

 

[fastback]

I can say with a clear conscience that I had more fun in half an hour in a Robbie 22 than in any of the two thousand hours I've spent in an airplane with my pants on.

 

[Cobra]

Do you really think anyone is getting job interviews & offers (at AA & SWA in your example) because of some extra TT from flying t & go's years ago?

Come on now, I know you know this industry better than that....

Come' on man. You too are missing the spirit of the issue that's being debated here. Until you have walked a few yards in the shoes we're talking about then maybe you would understand.

 

[Quimby]

I think I've got a clear grasp on the debate. But the "152 time" angle just sounds like something I'd expect to read in a USA Today article. You & I both know the folks getting on far exceed any mins right now, and the light a/c pattern & training time isn't even close to being a factor.

 

[Klako]

When applying for a major airline job, having helicopter time in your log book is like having VD in your medical records.

 

[lookin4better]

Im not complaining......it was just a question to see what people out there thought.....yes CAL is friendly to the RW time! One of the best comments on here was : it should be counted WITH a good amount FW time to back it up ;-) and they do. AND I guess I mis-titled the thread , I should have used 'by some' in there somewhere.

 

[Russ]

"going 15 miles from MCAS Tustin to the ranges at Pendleton VFR"

That's going old school. Bunch of youngsters looking up Tustin now, wondering where it is.

Cobra
If SWA gives me the nod, its because of the 6000 hours of flying that is almost exactly like what they do on a daily basis. Pretty sure they don't care about my piston time from the early 90's. I think all of your helo time should be counted. You have a valid point about it, just don't denigrate those who happen to agree with you that came up the civilian flying route. They may make the long term decisions that effect helo pilots collectively.

 

[pilotyip]

Stupid Managment

Someone has to figure out why uninformed management knuckleheads don't view a multi-crew Captain time in an advanced IFR helo like the H-60, H-46, H-53 or H-47 as not real flight time. However, PIC in a VFR only C-150 in the traffic pattern is the breakfast of champions for an airline career by those who set hard fixed wing limits and ignore helo time in total time. Why are most management and insurance company’s sooooo out of touch with reality? Ops I am sorry I was management bashing again.

 

[Oh-ryan]

Someone has to figure out why uninformed management knuckleheads don't view a multi-crew Captain time in an advanced IFR helo like the H-60, H-46, H-53 or H-47 as not real flight time. However, PIC in a VFR only C-150 in the traffic pattern is the breakfast of champions for an airline career by those who set hard fixed wing limits and ignore helo time in total time. Why are most management and insurance company’s sooooo out of touch with reality? Ops I am sorry I was management bashing again.

I agree that it should absolutely be counted, but as I stated in an earlier post the pilot should also have experience in FW aircraft. Make some kind of rule that helo time is only to be counted provided that the applicant have at least an ATP in a FW aircraft. Something along those lines.

Until a standard like that is in place management will always be a little hesitant about counting helo time. One reason being is that the most critical phase of flight is during takeoff and landing. Any monkey can fly straight and level, but if its the middle of summer and you're in your heavy 777 traveling at 140 knots past V1 and you sh!t an engine you have about 300 people counting on your V1 cut. That is something you will never get to practice as a helo guy (or as a C-172 guy for that matter). Now granted, taking off/landing/hovering/autorotation in a helo can be just as challenging, but the skills and practice needed to perfect those maneuvers are not needed in the airlines.

 

[USARET]

I agree that it should absolutely be counted, but as I stated in an earlier post the pilot should also have experience in FW aircraft. Make some kind of rule that helo time is only to be counted provided that the applicant have at least an ATP in a FW aircraft. Something along those lines.

Until a standard like that is in place management will always be a little hesitant about counting helo time. One reason being is that the most critical phase of flight is during takeoff and landing. Any monkey can fly straight and level, but if its the middle of summer and you're in your heavy 777 traveling at 140 knots past V1 and you sh!t an engine you have about 300 people counting on your V1 cut. That is something you will never get to practice as a helo guy (or as a C-172 guy for that matter). Now granted, taking off/landing/hovering/autorotation in a helo can be just as challenging, but the skills and practice needed to perfect those maneuvers are not needed in the airlines.

I'll take a V1 cut anytime over losing an engine or tailrotor at night, low level, wearing NVG's, in bad guy land.

 

[Oh-ryan]

I'll take a V1 cut anytime over losing an engine or tailrotor at night, low level, wearing NVG's, in bad guy land.

me too. Not the point I was trying to make. I have never stated the flying FW is harder than RW. If fact I think I have made in clear in my posts that I think the opposite. However, airlines are more concerned with your V1 cut than your abilities to put her down after you lost the tail rotor. If you have very little multi-engine FW time you have not proven your proficiency in this skill. I agree that V1 cuts are not that hard to master, but you need to prove you can do it and do it well.

 

[Be 23]

Interesting thread. I'm a little to old and ummotivated to go for the majors, but if I had an attitude change . . . With my helo time, 250 hours of PIC in my Sundowner, and a week at All ATP's I've got the rating.

So what am I going to learn about flying jets at Ari Ben in a Duchess (or some other time builder) that I don't already know?

Those of you who have done it, please let me know. I suspect that once you know the basic pilot stuff, you have to train in jets to learn jets.

Fly safe . . .

 

[Cobra]

me too. Not the point I was trying to make. I have never stated the flying FW is harder than RW. If fact I think I have made in clear in my posts that I think the opposite. However, airlines are more concerned with your V1 cut than your abilities to put her down after you lost the tail rotor. If you have very little multi-engine FW time you have not proven your proficiency in this skill. I agree that V1 cuts are not that hard to master, but you need to prove you can do it and do it well.

When's the last time someone did a V1 cut in a Cessna 152? As mentioned before, decent helo time isn't going to replace good Part 121 turbojet time. I'll reiterate what's already been said here on this thread: It's ludicrous to count C152 traffic time as total time and not helo time-especially turbine military helo time.

G

 

[g-code]

Helicopters are like homosexuals: unnatural.

 

[Cobra]

Helicopters are like homosexuals: unnatural.

Tell me about it. A million pieces and parts always trying to make a departure from one another.

 

[Caveman]

I'll reiterate what's already been said here on this thread: It's ludicrous to count C152 traffic time as total time and not helo time-especially turbine military helo time.

G

Uhhh...you're applying for a FW job. Why shouldn't all FW time count? Why should any RW time count?

Let's say you're applying for a job as dentist and there is another guy trying to get the job. Problem is the other guy is a dentist and you are a heart surgeon. Is heart surgery more difficult than being a dentist. Yep. Are there similar skills involved. Yep. Is the heart surgeon better qualified to be a dentist than a dentist even though they both practice medicine and heart surgery is more difficult. Nope.

If you have two dentists with equal dental qualifications and experience but one of them also happens to be a heart surgeon, then the cardiovascular experience is relevant. But a less qualified dentist that happens to be a heart surgeon is still a less qualified dentist.

A lame analogy, but it makes my point.

Just to make sure we're clear on where I'm at with this, turbine helo time is valuable airmanship and should be counted once all the basic fixed wing time is met. IMO a helo guy that doesn't meet mins unless he counts his helo time is not as qualified as a pure FW guy that does. Just like a FW guy applying for RW job isn't either if he has to rely on his FW to meet the mins for the job at hand. If a company wants to accept inbred time from either candidate, that's their business. I'm not saying to not accept it, but RW time isn't FW and vice versa regardless of degree of difficulty.

FWIW, I have a little (and I mean very,very little) time in RW. It's apples and oranges and RW initially seems to be significantly more challenging.

 

[DAL737FO]

The funny thing is that a helicopter, once through effective translational lift (ETL is about 16-24 knots), flies just like an airplane. Where a helicopter gets it's reputation is from people learning to hover. If you took a UH-60 did a running takeoff, flew at a normal cruise speed and did a run on landing you would have very little difference between it and a cessna. Oh yeah except the UH-60 is faster.

Delta didn't count helo time during it's big hiring binge in the late 90's and early 00's. A good many of us former helo guys spent many hours talking to Plato Rhyne trying to convince him that helo time should count. Unfortunately the hiring cycle stopped before he actually would count helo time.