Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Why I am extremely nervous about 9E bankruptcy.

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
250 kts is to comply with the ATL RNAV SIDS. But you obviously don't read them.

Evidently some of the majors don't read them either, because their procedure does not immediately accelerate to 250 either. Yes, there are speed restrictions on the departure, but they are to restrict you from accelerating faster than 250 before points, not dictating that you accelerate to 250 at 1001 AGL. Many majors also do not set a speed faster than the limitation for the current flap configuration. My airline does not allow it. In fact, my airline will not accelerate to 250 until 3,000 AGL and flaps are retracted.

Simon's point is valid. It's the responsible approach to managing the automation. His comments are not an attack on your pilotage or your professionalism, but a commentary on how the procedures have been interpreted (not even written) at one airline. This whole debate is over tribal knowledge and technique vs policy. The policy, written doctrine, says 210 to 3000 AGL. You're just told by instructors, flight standards check airman, and LCAs that in ATL we accelerate directly to 250. In fact, it would be a fairly easy legal battle if a pilot was distracted, overspeed the flaps, doing structural damage and crashed. The books are quite clear on what the pilot was supposed to do, but he deliberately disregarded written procedure. But given DoinTime rationalization that the book doesn't tell the pilot how to crash, maybe a legal battle could be won for dereliction of duty if a pilot survives one. :rolleyes:

As to the attacks on Simon's character, you'll never meet a better pilot. He has volunteered for ALPA more than most will ever do, and although he is just a line pilot, is better connected to, and respected by, current Flight Ops mgmt. than you might think.
 
Mandated technique is what is written in the book. Personal technique is something else.

For God's sake people someone put together a reasonable aurgument as to why you dial up the speed bug to 250 with the flaps down.

Enough of the BS of, flight standards, its the way we do it, the flaps will come up before you reach 230...blah, blah, blah. Its poor technique.

As getting involved, I have been involved on got burned out, now I just argue on Flightinfo.

Next we can argue why you guys put a space in the flight number on the EICAS screen. Hold on, let me guess, its so you can see it better. Roll eyes.

What do you do with this new (in my opinion awful but mandated) can't descend in speed mode? I (and most of the guys I flew with before the change) used speed mode especially below 10K. Yet Pinnacle made it a limitation prohibiting the speed protection mode of the autopilot, why? It seems to be a pattern of things, "this is the way we do it and there is no better way"
 
Evidently some of the majors don't read them either, because their procedure does not immediately accelerate to 250 either. Yes, there are speed restrictions on the departure, but they are to restrict you from accelerating faster than 250 before points, not dictating that you accelerate to 250 at 1001 AGL. Many majors also do not set a speed faster than the limitation for the current flap configuration. My airline does not allow it. In fact, my airline will not accelerate to 250 until 3,000 AGL and flaps are retracted.

Simon's point is valid. It's the responsible approach to managing the automation. His comments are not an attack on your pilotage or your professionalism, but a commentary on how the procedures have been interpreted (not even written) at one airline. This whole debate is over tribal knowledge and technique vs policy. The policy, written doctrine, says 210 to 3000 AGL. You're just told by instructors, flight standards check airman, and LCAs that in ATL we accelerate directly to 250. In fact, it would be a fairly easy legal battle if a pilot was distracted, overspeed the flaps, doing structural damage and crashed. The books are quite clear on what the pilot was supposed to do, but he deliberately disregarded written procedure. But given DoinTime rationalization that the book doesn't tell the pilot how to crash, maybe a legal battle could be won for dereliction of duty if a pilot survives one. :rolleyes:

As to the attacks on Simon's character, you'll never meet a better pilot. He has volunteered for ALPA more than most will ever do, and although he is just a line pilot, is better connected to, and respected by, current Flight Ops mgmt. than you might think.
What does the note on the SID Accelerate to 250KIAS, if unable advise ATC mean to you?
 
What does the note on the SID Accelerate to 250KIAS, if unable advise ATC mean to you?

It means accelerate to 250 as able, and if you in an aircraft that is incapable of 250, let them know. I never said we didn't have to accelerate to 250, and neither did Simon. But you don't have to break limitations, policies, FARs, or damage aircraft to get there. I'll do it at 3000 AGL with flaps up, as my company wants me to, and as my manuals are written.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Murph,

And to all this is just a trivial debate on technique and nothing else. I don't have any issues on how Pinnacle wants us to fly the 900. In fact for the most part its in line with XJ and I am sure with ever other 900 carrier.

Thanks Flyer...I am going to look in my CCI pages now. I don't recal reading anything in there, but if it says dial right up to 250kts...then I am wrong...but I am looking right now.
 
You are making this complicated. Pinnacle's procedure out of ATL on the 200s, as specified in the specific yellow CCI pages for ATL in the LIDOs, bug 250 out of 1000. Flaps come up at V2+12 for flaps 8 or V2+20 for flaps 20. You make your standard callouts and clean the airplane, well below 200 knots. You shouldn't even see the red barber pole as long as you followed your profile and called flaps up at V2+20.

So what's the big deal? Flap overspeed? Why? Because you forgot the callout to get the flaps up?

I never saw anyone at 9E do what you are saying out of ATL. But if a guy did, I'd consider it nonstandard. The book doesn't say to bug 220, wait to clean up, and then do 250. I understand where you're coming from, but the book didn't have that written in it. Now I left recently, but I distinctly remember the CRJ-200 LIDOs for ATL in the CCI page said you could do 250 out of 1,000AGL.

Edit: I spoke of the -200. I dont know the -900 operations. That thing has slats, and I don't know where the barber pole is or at what speed you clean slats up. But on the -200, with a flaps 20 takeoff you cleaned up flaps at V2+20, typically by 170kts and positive trend, the flaps were coming to 0. I don't think I ever saw the red barber pole on the speed scale for flap overspeed on a takeoff in a CRJ-200.

I imagine that the 200 has the same CCI pages as the 900.

Quote from CCI Page C-14 "At 1000 AGL, accelerate to 250kts, unless there is an operational restriction/necessity to do otherwise. This may be done as an exception to the 200/900 normal profile."

It does not tell you to bug 250 right away. In fact, I think that we still bug 210kts until the flaps are up and then immediatly dial in 250kts per profile. This CCI page and the memo I have refrenced has said and implied the only thing we do different is accelerate to 250kts through 1000ft in ATL. No where does it say dial directly to 250kts with the flaps down.

With the logic of most of my nay sayers why don't you guys immediatly bug 320 for your cruise speed. It would save that much more arm movement.
 
I imagine that the 200 has the same CCI pages as the 900.

Quote from CCI Page C-14 "At 1000 AGL, accelerate to 250kts, unless there is an operational restriction/necessity to do otherwise. This may be done as an exception to the 200/900 normal profile."

It does not tell you to bug 250 right away. In fact, I think that we still bug 210kts until the flaps are up and then immediatly dial in 250kts per profile. This CCI page and the memo I have refrenced has said and implied the only thing we do different is accelerate to 250kts through 1000ft in ATL. No where does it say dial directly to 250kts with the flaps down.

With the logic of most of my nay sayers why don't you guys immediatly bug 320 for your cruise speed. It would save that much more arm movement.

It's kinda like pilots and controllers from ATL calling taxiway (D) "Dixie". It's so common they think its the correct way of saying it.
 
It's kinda like pilots and controllers from ATL calling taxiway (D) "Dixie". It's so common they think its the correct way of saying it.

Look at your airport diagram or the taxiway signs. It is taxiway "Dixie". It was done to prevent confusion between the airline and the taxiway. In ATL, that is the correct way to say it.
 
Look at your airport diagram or the taxiway signs. It is taxiway "Dixie". It was done to prevent confusion between the airline and the taxiway. In ATL, that is the correct way to say it.

Rrrrrrright, but when they say it in La garbage, Salt like sssssitty, Minnenoplace, and any airport besides Atlanta it's just silly.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top