Why I am extremely nervous about 9E bankruptcy.

[CptMurf]

250 kts is to comply with the ATL RNAV SIDS. But you obviously don't read them.

Evidently some of the majors don't read them either, because their procedure does not immediately accelerate to 250 either. Yes, there are speed restrictions on the departure, but they are to restrict you from accelerating faster than 250 before points, not dictating that you accelerate to 250 at 1001 AGL. Many majors also do not set a speed faster than the limitation for the current flap configuration. My airline does not allow it. In fact, my airline will not accelerate to 250 until 3,000 AGL and flaps are retracted.

Simon's point is valid. It's the responsible approach to managing the automation. His comments are not an attack on your pilotage or your professionalism, but a commentary on how the procedures have been interpreted (not even written) at one airline. This whole debate is over tribal knowledge and technique vs policy. The policy, written doctrine, says 210 to 3000 AGL. You're just told by instructors, flight standards check airman, and LCAs that in ATL we accelerate directly to 250. In fact, it would be a fairly easy legal battle if a pilot was distracted, overspeed the flaps, doing structural damage and crashed. The books are quite clear on what the pilot was supposed to do, but he deliberately disregarded written procedure. But given DoinTime rationalization that the book doesn't tell the pilot how to crash, maybe a legal battle could be won for dereliction of duty if a pilot survives one.

As to the attacks on Simon's character, you'll never meet a better pilot. He has volunteered for ALPA more than most will ever do, and although he is just a line pilot, is better connected to, and respected by, current Flight Ops mgmt. than you might think.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Mandated technique is what is written in the book. Personal technique is something else.

For God's sake people someone put together a reasonable aurgument as to why you dial up the speed bug to 250 with the flaps down.

Enough of the BS of, flight standards, its the way we do it, the flaps will come up before you reach 230...blah, blah, blah. Its poor technique.

As getting involved, I have been involved on got burned out, now I just argue on Flightinfo.

Next we can argue why you guys put a space in the flight number on the EICAS screen. Hold on, let me guess, its so you can see it better. Roll eyes.

What do you do with this new (in my opinion awful but mandated) can't descend in speed mode? I (and most of the guys I flew with before the change) used speed mode especially below 10K. Yet Pinnacle made it a limitation prohibiting the speed protection mode of the autopilot, why? It seems to be a pattern of things, "this is the way we do it and there is no better way"

 

[Charty]

Evidently some of the majors don't read them either, because their procedure does not immediately accelerate to 250 either. Yes, there are speed restrictions on the departure, but they are to restrict you from accelerating faster than 250 before points, not dictating that you accelerate to 250 at 1001 AGL. Many majors also do not set a speed faster than the limitation for the current flap configuration. My airline does not allow it. In fact, my airline will not accelerate to 250 until 3,000 AGL and flaps are retracted.

Simon's point is valid. It's the responsible approach to managing the automation. His comments are not an attack on your pilotage or your professionalism, but a commentary on how the procedures have been interpreted (not even written) at one airline. This whole debate is over tribal knowledge and technique vs policy. The policy, written doctrine, says 210 to 3000 AGL. You're just told by instructors, flight standards check airman, and LCAs that in ATL we accelerate directly to 250. In fact, it would be a fairly easy legal battle if a pilot was distracted, overspeed the flaps, doing structural damage and crashed. The books are quite clear on what the pilot was supposed to do, but he deliberately disregarded written procedure. But given DoinTime rationalization that the book doesn't tell the pilot how to crash, maybe a legal battle could be won for dereliction of duty if a pilot survives one.

As to the attacks on Simon's character, you'll never meet a better pilot. He has volunteered for ALPA more than most will ever do, and although he is just a line pilot, is better connected to, and respected by, current Flight Ops mgmt. than you might think.

What does the note on the SID Accelerate to 250KIAS, if unable advise ATC mean to you?

 

[CptMurf]

What does the note on the SID Accelerate to 250KIAS, if unable advise ATC mean to you?

It means accelerate to 250 as able, and if you in an aircraft that is incapable of 250, let them know. I never said we didn't have to accelerate to 250, and neither did Simon. But you don't have to break limitations, policies, FARs, or damage aircraft to get there. I'll do it at 3000 AGL with flaps up, as my company wants me to, and as my manuals are written.

 

[Simon Says]

Thanks Murph,

And to all this is just a trivial debate on technique and nothing else. I don't have any issues on how Pinnacle wants us to fly the 900. In fact for the most part its in line with XJ and I am sure with ever other 900 carrier.

Thanks Flyer...I am going to look in my CCI pages now. I don't recal reading anything in there, but if it says dial right up to 250kts...then I am wrong...but I am looking right now.

 

[Simon Says]

You are making this complicated. Pinnacle's procedure out of ATL on the 200s, as specified in the specific yellow CCI pages for ATL in the LIDOs, bug 250 out of 1000. Flaps come up at V2+12 for flaps 8 or V2+20 for flaps 20. You make your standard callouts and clean the airplane, well below 200 knots. You shouldn't even see the red barber pole as long as you followed your profile and called flaps up at V2+20.

So what's the big deal? Flap overspeed? Why? Because you forgot the callout to get the flaps up?

I never saw anyone at 9E do what you are saying out of ATL. But if a guy did, I'd consider it nonstandard. The book doesn't say to bug 220, wait to clean up, and then do 250. I understand where you're coming from, but the book didn't have that written in it. Now I left recently, but I distinctly remember the CRJ-200 LIDOs for ATL in the CCI page said you could do 250 out of 1,000AGL.

Edit: I spoke of the -200. I dont know the -900 operations. That thing has slats, and I don't know where the barber pole is or at what speed you clean slats up. But on the -200, with a flaps 20 takeoff you cleaned up flaps at V2+20, typically by 170kts and positive trend, the flaps were coming to 0. I don't think I ever saw the red barber pole on the speed scale for flap overspeed on a takeoff in a CRJ-200.

I imagine that the 200 has the same CCI pages as the 900.

Quote from CCI Page C-14 "At 1000 AGL, accelerate to 250kts, unless there is an operational restriction/necessity to do otherwise. This may be done as an exception to the 200/900 normal profile."

It does not tell you to bug 250 right away. In fact, I think that we still bug 210kts until the flaps are up and then immediatly dial in 250kts per profile. This CCI page and the memo I have refrenced has said and implied the only thing we do different is accelerate to 250kts through 1000ft in ATL. No where does it say dial directly to 250kts with the flaps down.

With the logic of most of my nay sayers why don't you guys immediatly bug 320 for your cruise speed. It would save that much more arm movement.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

I imagine that the 200 has the same CCI pages as the 900.

Quote from CCI Page C-14 "At 1000 AGL, accelerate to 250kts, unless there is an operational restriction/necessity to do otherwise. This may be done as an exception to the 200/900 normal profile."

It does not tell you to bug 250 right away. In fact, I think that we still bug 210kts until the flaps are up and then immediatly dial in 250kts per profile. This CCI page and the memo I have refrenced has said and implied the only thing we do different is accelerate to 250kts through 1000ft in ATL. No where does it say dial directly to 250kts with the flaps down.

With the logic of most of my nay sayers why don't you guys immediatly bug 320 for your cruise speed. It would save that much more arm movement.

It's kinda like pilots and controllers from ATL calling taxiway (D) "Dixie". It's so common they think its the correct way of saying it.

 

[ASADriver]

It's kinda like pilots and controllers from ATL calling taxiway (D) "Dixie". It's so common they think its the correct way of saying it.

Look at your airport diagram or the taxiway signs. It is taxiway "Dixie". It was done to prevent confusion between the airline and the taxiway. In ATL, that is the correct way to say it.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Look at your airport diagram or the taxiway signs. It is taxiway "Dixie". It was done to prevent confusion between the airline and the taxiway. In ATL, that is the correct way to say it.

Rrrrrrright, but when they say it in La garbage, Salt like sssssitty, Minnenoplace, and any airport besides Atlanta it's just silly.

 

[Raskal]

Rrrrrrright, but when they say it in La garbage, Salt like sssssitty, Minnenoplace, and any airport besides Atlanta it's just silly.

:laugh:

 

[Flyer1015]

You know, because it isn't specifically written so, it's just a technique. To be honest, I never thought about it when I bugged it up to 250. But Simon does have a point, and he now got me thinking about something that I otherwise wasn't doing before. It's a technique that shows precision and he has a good reason for it.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

9E has some serious primacy issues that go on during training. I did not hear from any of my trainers that the before landing checklist is done as a flow until sim lesson 7. It is not in the book that way, but apparently it is done that way on the line. Another primacy issue is HAA. If you want us to say the heading airspeed and altitude for every takeoff roll, put it in the profile so I learn the right calls the first time. Don't stick it in some obscure part of the CFM. That is just two of the many issues that come up while going through training. While some of the transition captains I am sure have their own personal issues, learning through fear and intimidation is not the most effective way to teach. That is a lot of the problem.

The "before landing check" is a challenge and response checklist. Per the CFM chapter 4 it says "The challenge and response checklist is first done as a flow. The applicable items are completed from memory (recall) using a flow pattern. Upon completion of the pattern, the checklist is read aloud.". I don't see the problem here. Is it that nobody taught you about challenge and response checklists? How did you do it at Mesaba? I'm just curious.

 

[bri5150]

Okay, then why is it not notated the same as the other checklists that have a flow procedure listed in front of them? Either way, I know now and I guess that is what matters. At Mesaba the pm would read an item and do it as the checklist went along. For example, the Captain would call for before start, the fo would read an item, the captain would do the action and say the response.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Okay, then why is it not notated the same as the other checklists that have a flow procedure listed in front of them? Either way, I know now and I guess that is what matters. At Mesaba the pm would read an item and do it as the checklist went along. For example, the Captain would call for before start, the fo would read an item, the captain would do the action and say the response.

I understand your frustration. I hope your line flying experience has been better than your training experience.

 

[bri5150]

Actually, yes it has been, ty. Everyone I have flown with have been stand up people...despite the fact they will certainly lose their job in the next year. It's tough to operate in this environment, and they don't let it affect them. I commend them for that.

 

[N813CA]

bug what you want last I knew the CRJ doesn't have auto thrust of throttle.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

bug what you want last I knew the CRJ doesn't have auto thrust of throttle.

You mean auto throttles for thrust

 

[RJLoser]

Or is it thrust throttles for otto?

 

[Northern Lights]

Just make sure you don't miss an FMA call!!! "Roll, Climb 152!" :smash:

 

[007]

over 200 of the 318 SkyW fleet are E120 or CR2. All The Expressjet planes are 50 seaters, and ASA is mostly the same. The fleet is made up of aged, worthless, lemons. It would be like a rental car company bragging about their huge fleet of Pontiac Aztecs.

^ ^ ^

Love it.