Why I am extremely nervous about 9E bankruptcy.

[Simon Says]

You guys are wierd over there with your procedures. The technique you crucify is the exact procedure at ASA. We fly v2+15 til 1000agl then twist in 250(class B airports) and call for flaps up as soon as the trend vector goes positive. 3 1/2 years on the CRJ2/7/9 I have never seen anyone overspeed the flaps after takeoff

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Like I said before, that is bad airmanship. You are commanding the autopilot to overspeed the flaps. Just because you have done it that way for years or you have been taught that way. It is still bad airmanship for you to command the autopilot to overspeed the flaps.

Why don't you put the speed bug at 220 and when the flap vmo line disapears then dial it up to 250kts.

 

[777forever]

So you command the autopilot to break a limitation in the aircraft? Why?

I find this to be bad airmanship even if you don't break the actual limitation.

This is absolutely rediculous. First off, its bad airmanship if you dont have the situational awareness to remember to put the flaps up in the 20+ secs it takes to accelerate to 250. 2nd, even if youre that horrible(have yet to see it) the snake on the speedtape creeping up on you before you hit 250 should give you another clue.

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[777forever]

Like I said before, that is bad airmanship. You are commanding the autopilot to overspeed the flaps. Just because you have done it that way for years or you have been taught that way. It is still bad airmanship for you to command the autopilot to overspeed the flaps.

Why don't you put the speed bug at 220 and when the flap vmo line disapears then dial it up to 250kts.

Once again, we are trained to put the flaps up at the slightest hint of positive trend vector from V2+15. Putting the bug at 220 would be a wasteful, unnecessary, and tedious procedure. Whats that old saying in aviation? Keep It Simple Stupid

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[dustrpilot]

I don't see the problem as long as limitations are respected. By your logic, your a bad airman for using max takeoff power for a T/O with a low altitude level off because if you have to level off at say, 3000' AGL, you'll exceed red line if you don't pull the thrust levers back.
Not cranking on you, just sounds like your making it harder than it needs to be.

 

[777forever]

I don't see the problem as long as limitations are respected. By your logic, your a bad airman for using max takeoff power for a T/O with a low altitude level off because if you have to level off at say, 3000' AGL, you'll exceed red line if you don't pull the thrust levers back.
Not cranking on you, just sounds like your making it harder than it needs to be.

Excellent point. I see no practical use of setting 220.

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[Simon Says]

This is absolutely rediculous. First off, its bad airmanship if you dont have the situational awareness to remember to put the flaps up in the 20+ secs it takes to accelerate to 250. 2nd, even if youre that horrible(have yet to see it) the snake on the speedtape creeping up on you before you hit 250 should give you another clue.

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Philosophy of flight. First off let me tell you that we are debating a procedure that causes minimal risk to any sort of safety. We are simply debating a procedure that I find to be poor airmanship.

Second, just becuase you have been trained that way and have been doing it for a few years does not make it correct or even the best way of doing it. It is only their way of doing it.

So follow me on this one. Two scenerios when you would overspeed the flaps. The first one is if the flaps fail as you are accelerating...mabey you could prevent it or not by clicking off the A/P maybe not...I would guess it would be fairly hard to prevent unless you pull abrupt manuever and watching the acceleration schedule like a hawk. The second scenerio is simply a light aircraft and flaps 1/2 speed. I have seen many FO's come awfully close to breaking the limitiation...albiegt only slightly.

As for keep it simple is true, but I am protecting limitations just a little bit further than yourself by only comprimising 1 more arm movement than yourself.

Call me an idiot and I know I am debating a monkey, but come back with a reasonable reason for dialing the speed bug up to 250 with the flaps down and we can debate.

 

[Simon Says]

BTW, I have never flown the 200 or 700. All of my knowledge is in the 900 if that makes a difference.

 

[Data]

Philosophy of flight. First off let me tell you that we are debating a procedure that causes minimal risk to any sort of safety. We are simply debating a procedure that I find to be poor airmanship.

Second, just becuase you have been trained that way and have been doing it for a few years does not make it correct or even the best way of doing it. It is only their way of doing it.

So follow me on this one. Two scenerios when you would overspeed the flaps. The first one is if the flaps fail as you are accelerating...mabey you could prevent it or not by clicking off the A/P maybe not...I would guess it would be fairly hard to prevent unless you pull abrupt manuever and watching the acceleration schedule like a hawk. The second scenerio is simply a light aircraft and flaps 1/2 speed. I have seen many FO's come awfully close to breaking the limitiation...albiegt only slightly.

As for keep it simple is true, but I am protecting limitations just a little bit further than yourself by only comprimising 1 more arm movement than yourself.

Call me an idiot and I know I am debating a monkey, but come back with a reasonable reason for dialing the speed bug up to 250 with the flaps down and we can debate.

B o r i n g.

 

[xjhawk]

listen people. You are paid to fly an airplane by the POM-nothing else. Given emergency authority is the only reason you should drift from that book. This argument hold no water. If you fly with me and sway from the book we will talk about it. If you disagree you can take yourself off the flight or I will. I don't give a crap if you are a senior captain or the newest of FO's who knows it all. I do not care if I am an FO or a Captain-if I am straying from the POM, then you must address the issue.

 

[jynxyjericho]

I don't see the problem as long as limitations are respected. By your logic, your a bad airman for using max takeoff power for a T/O with a low altitude level off because if you have to level off at say, 3000' AGL, you'll exceed red line if you don't pull the thrust levers back.
Not cranking on you, just sounds like your making it harder than it needs to be.

Well no, you're not using his logic. The TO setting has nothing to do with leveling off after TO. You're just unknowingly creating a preposterous situation to try and prove the logic of your technique.

Personally I would just rather use pitch mode for most phases of flight... anyhow back on topic.

He is simply describing a technique, which is deigned to remind the pilot of a limitation. The technique that is used at Mesaba is probably a little more complex than it needs to be, I'm in favor of changing some of our procedures, but working off faulty logic doesn't convince anyone.

By your logic, setting a speed in excess of a limitation purposefully and counting on the pilot to simply know what he's doing would lend to getting rid of profiles. If everyone knows what they are doing and we're all safe (which is true) and we all memorize the limitations, then lets just fly it however we want.

The reason I use the profiles and don't use pitch mode constantly is because the crew environment is a team environment where I want my teammate to be able to know what I'm doing before I do it. We aren't just on the same page, we are able to collectively be ahead of the airplane.

Until I start hand flying, then it's all a cluster from there.