Why I am extremely nervous about 9E bankruptcy.

[Simon Says]

You guys are wierd over there with your procedures. The technique you crucify is the exact procedure at ASA. We fly v2+15 til 1000agl then twist in 250(class B airports) and call for flaps up as soon as the trend vector goes positive. 3 1/2 years on the CRJ2/7/9 I have never seen anyone overspeed the flaps after takeoff

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Like I said before, that is bad airmanship. You are commanding the autopilot to overspeed the flaps. Just because you have done it that way for years or you have been taught that way. It is still bad airmanship for you to command the autopilot to overspeed the flaps.

Why don't you put the speed bug at 220 and when the flap vmo line disapears then dial it up to 250kts.

 

[777forever]

So you command the autopilot to break a limitation in the aircraft? Why?

I find this to be bad airmanship even if you don't break the actual limitation.

This is absolutely rediculous. First off, its bad airmanship if you dont have the situational awareness to remember to put the flaps up in the 20+ secs it takes to accelerate to 250. 2nd, even if youre that horrible(have yet to see it) the snake on the speedtape creeping up on you before you hit 250 should give you another clue.

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[777forever]

Like I said before, that is bad airmanship. You are commanding the autopilot to overspeed the flaps. Just because you have done it that way for years or you have been taught that way. It is still bad airmanship for you to command the autopilot to overspeed the flaps.

Why don't you put the speed bug at 220 and when the flap vmo line disapears then dial it up to 250kts.

Once again, we are trained to put the flaps up at the slightest hint of positive trend vector from V2+15. Putting the bug at 220 would be a wasteful, unnecessary, and tedious procedure. Whats that old saying in aviation? Keep It Simple Stupid

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[dustrpilot]

I don't see the problem as long as limitations are respected. By your logic, your a bad airman for using max takeoff power for a T/O with a low altitude level off because if you have to level off at say, 3000' AGL, you'll exceed red line if you don't pull the thrust levers back.
Not cranking on you, just sounds like your making it harder than it needs to be.

 

[777forever]

I don't see the problem as long as limitations are respected. By your logic, your a bad airman for using max takeoff power for a T/O with a low altitude level off because if you have to level off at say, 3000' AGL, you'll exceed red line if you don't pull the thrust levers back.
Not cranking on you, just sounds like your making it harder than it needs to be.

Excellent point. I see no practical use of setting 220.

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[Simon Says]

This is absolutely rediculous. First off, its bad airmanship if you dont have the situational awareness to remember to put the flaps up in the 20+ secs it takes to accelerate to 250. 2nd, even if youre that horrible(have yet to see it) the snake on the speedtape creeping up on you before you hit 250 should give you another clue.

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Philosophy of flight. First off let me tell you that we are debating a procedure that causes minimal risk to any sort of safety. We are simply debating a procedure that I find to be poor airmanship.

Second, just becuase you have been trained that way and have been doing it for a few years does not make it correct or even the best way of doing it. It is only their way of doing it.

So follow me on this one. Two scenerios when you would overspeed the flaps. The first one is if the flaps fail as you are accelerating...mabey you could prevent it or not by clicking off the A/P maybe not...I would guess it would be fairly hard to prevent unless you pull abrupt manuever and watching the acceleration schedule like a hawk. The second scenerio is simply a light aircraft and flaps 1/2 speed. I have seen many FO's come awfully close to breaking the limitiation...albiegt only slightly.

As for keep it simple is true, but I am protecting limitations just a little bit further than yourself by only comprimising 1 more arm movement than yourself.

Call me an idiot and I know I am debating a monkey, but come back with a reasonable reason for dialing the speed bug up to 250 with the flaps down and we can debate.

 

[Simon Says]

BTW, I have never flown the 200 or 700. All of my knowledge is in the 900 if that makes a difference.

 

[Data]

Philosophy of flight. First off let me tell you that we are debating a procedure that causes minimal risk to any sort of safety. We are simply debating a procedure that I find to be poor airmanship.

Second, just becuase you have been trained that way and have been doing it for a few years does not make it correct or even the best way of doing it. It is only their way of doing it.

So follow me on this one. Two scenerios when you would overspeed the flaps. The first one is if the flaps fail as you are accelerating...mabey you could prevent it or not by clicking off the A/P maybe not...I would guess it would be fairly hard to prevent unless you pull abrupt manuever and watching the acceleration schedule like a hawk. The second scenerio is simply a light aircraft and flaps 1/2 speed. I have seen many FO's come awfully close to breaking the limitiation...albiegt only slightly.

As for keep it simple is true, but I am protecting limitations just a little bit further than yourself by only comprimising 1 more arm movement than yourself.

Call me an idiot and I know I am debating a monkey, but come back with a reasonable reason for dialing the speed bug up to 250 with the flaps down and we can debate.

B o r i n g.

 

[xjhawk]

listen people. You are paid to fly an airplane by the POM-nothing else. Given emergency authority is the only reason you should drift from that book. This argument hold no water. If you fly with me and sway from the book we will talk about it. If you disagree you can take yourself off the flight or I will. I don't give a crap if you are a senior captain or the newest of FO's who knows it all. I do not care if I am an FO or a Captain-if I am straying from the POM, then you must address the issue.

 

[jynxyjericho]

I don't see the problem as long as limitations are respected. By your logic, your a bad airman for using max takeoff power for a T/O with a low altitude level off because if you have to level off at say, 3000' AGL, you'll exceed red line if you don't pull the thrust levers back.
Not cranking on you, just sounds like your making it harder than it needs to be.

Well no, you're not using his logic. The TO setting has nothing to do with leveling off after TO. You're just unknowingly creating a preposterous situation to try and prove the logic of your technique.

Personally I would just rather use pitch mode for most phases of flight... anyhow back on topic.

He is simply describing a technique, which is deigned to remind the pilot of a limitation. The technique that is used at Mesaba is probably a little more complex than it needs to be, I'm in favor of changing some of our procedures, but working off faulty logic doesn't convince anyone.

By your logic, setting a speed in excess of a limitation purposefully and counting on the pilot to simply know what he's doing would lend to getting rid of profiles. If everyone knows what they are doing and we're all safe (which is true) and we all memorize the limitations, then lets just fly it however we want.

The reason I use the profiles and don't use pitch mode constantly is because the crew environment is a team environment where I want my teammate to be able to know what I'm doing before I do it. We aren't just on the same page, we are able to collectively be ahead of the airplane.

Until I start hand flying, then it's all a cluster from there.

 

[Simon Says]

listen people. You are paid to fly an airplane by the POM-nothing else. Given emergency authority is the only reason you should drift from that book. This argument hold no water. If you fly with me and sway from the book we will talk about it. If you disagree you can take yourself off the flight or I will. I don't give a crap if you are a senior captain or the newest of FO's who knows it all. I do not care if I am an FO or a Captain-if I am straying from the POM, then you must address the issue.

Not to sound like a know it all, cuz I am just an ordinary Captain, but no where in our POM, FOM, or anywhere else does it say to dial it up to 250kts out of ATL. I can point to a company memo that tells us to accelerate as soon as practical to 250kts out of ATL. Which it is telling us to disregard the climb of 210kts to 3000 AGL.

So tell me what is the problem with my technique of dialing it to 210kts until the flaps VMO line disapears and then dialing it to 250kts. I think thats good form and stick by it.

And for all you FO's that think I am being a stick in the mud, when the FO is flying and dials it all the way up to 250kts...I let them, but let them know my philosophy on the deal. As long as they understand the pitfalls of it all, they can fly their own technique. I just personally think it is a bad technique.

 

[DoinTime]

Not to sound like a know it all, cuz I am just an ordinary Captain, but no where in our POM, FOM, or anywhere else does it say to dial it up to 250kts out of ATL. I can point to a company memo that tells us to accelerate as soon as practical to 250kts out of ATL.

I couldn't find anywhere in those manuals either where it says to not crash the plane. There isn't even a memo on that either.

 

[Simon Says]

I couldn't find anywhere in those manuals either where it says to not crash the plane. There isn't even a memo on that either.

So we agree that dialing it up to 250kts is a technique and not per the book? Once we agree with that then we can move on to the debate of what is good technique and what is not.

 

[Charty]

So we agree that dialing it up to 250kts is a technique and not per the book? Once we agree with that then we can move on to the debate of what is good technique and what is not.

250 kts is to comply with the ATL RNAV SIDS. But you obviously don't read them.

 

[jynxyjericho]

I couldn't find anywhere in those manuals either where it says to not crash the plane. There isn't even a memo on that either.

Is that you John Wayne?

 

[DoinTime]

More of a mandated technique. Just do it. Its not that hard and thousands of pilots before you have done it safely. If your going to be the guy who is constantly reinventing guidance from the standards department, its going to be a tough road here for you. If you really don't like, get involved and try to get it fixed the right way.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

listen people. You are paid to fly an airplane by the POM-nothing else. Given emergency authority is the only reason you should drift from that book. This argument hold no water. If you fly with me and sway from the book we will talk about it. If you disagree you can take yourself off the flight or I will. I don't give a crap if you are a senior captain or the newest of FO's who knows it all. I do not care if I am an FO or a Captain-if I am straying from the POM, then you must address the issue.

If you can create a book that has a the perfect output for every input, you wouldn't have a job. They would write a computer program with all the input/output codes matched up. If you've been in this business very long and paid attention, I'm sure you've seen that "infallible book" waffle on the same topic several times. I'm not saying that the information written in the book isn't fantastic guidance and in most cases has a very good procedure for most situations, but certainly not infallible or even all encompassing. It's been my experience that people who say "Fly by the book and nothing else," are either trying to prove a point or are using that book to make up for a lack of leadership, decision making ability, or airmanship.

 

[Simon Says]

More of a mandated technique. Just do it. Its not that hard and thousands of pilots before you have done it safely. If your going to be the guy who is constantly reinventing guidance from the standards department, its going to be a tough road here for you. If you really don't like, get involved and try to get it fixed the right way.

Mandated technique is what is written in the book. Personal technique is something else.

For God's sake people someone put together a reasonable aurgument as to why you dial up the speed bug to 250 with the flaps down.

Enough of the BS of, flight standards, its the way we do it, the flaps will come up before you reach 230...blah, blah, blah. Its poor technique.

As getting involved, I have been involved on got burned out, now I just argue on Flightinfo.

Next we can argue why you guys put a space in the flight number on the EICAS screen. Hold on, let me guess, its so you can see it better. Roll eyes.

 

[Flyer1015]

Not to sound like a know it all, cuz I am just an ordinary Captain, but no where in our POM, FOM, or anywhere else does it say to dial it up to 250kts out of ATL. I can point to a company memo that tells us to accelerate as soon as practical to 250kts out of ATL. Which it is telling us to disregard the climb of 210kts to 3000 AGL.

So tell me what is the problem with my technique of dialing it to 210kts until the flaps VMO line disapears and then dialing it to 250kts. I think thats good form and stick by it.

And for all you FO's that think I am being a stick in the mud, when the FO is flying and dials it all the way up to 250kts...I let them, but let them know my philosophy on the deal. As long as they understand the pitfalls of it all, they can fly their own technique. I just personally think it is a bad technique.

You are making this complicated. Pinnacle's procedure out of ATL on the 200s, as specified in the specific yellow CCI pages for ATL in the LIDOs, bug 250 out of 1000. Flaps come up at V2+12 for flaps 8 or V2+20 for flaps 20. You make your standard callouts and clean the airplane, well below 200 knots. You shouldn't even see the red barber pole as long as you followed your profile and called flaps up at V2+20.

So what's the big deal? Flap overspeed? Why? Because you forgot the callout to get the flaps up?

I never saw anyone at 9E do what you are saying out of ATL. But if a guy did, I'd consider it nonstandard. The book doesn't say to bug 220, wait to clean up, and then do 250. I understand where you're coming from, but the book didn't have that written in it. Now I left recently, but I distinctly remember the CRJ-200 LIDOs for ATL in the CCI page said you could do 250 out of 1,000AGL.

Edit: I spoke of the -200. I dont know the -900 operations. That thing has slats, and I don't know where the barber pole is or at what speed you clean slats up. But on the -200, with a flaps 20 takeoff you cleaned up flaps at V2+20, typically by 170kts and positive trend, the flaps were coming to 0. I don't think I ever saw the red barber pole on the speed scale for flap overspeed on a takeoff in a CRJ-200.

 

[rtmcfi]

Who puts the AP on before the flaps are up?