Why does everyone want jetBlue to fail?

[hoover]

Because if they get the rule changed it affects everyone not just them. It is a selfish act that does nothing to improve the profession. When you work for a profitable airline and do nothing to raise the bar and actually try and lower it in some aspects you get called on it.

Again I don't want them to fail, I want them to thrive. I just want the pilots to stand up for themselves and be leaders in improving things not just followers.

I think it could improve the profession. No one is talking about changing the weekly, monthly or hourly limits, just the daily limit. It seems to me that if a person can fly more hours in a day, but not more hours in a week or month or year, that would translate to more days off. How is that bad?

 

[K-Mart]

QUOTE]Because if they get the rule changed it affects everyone not just them. It is a selfish act that does nothing to improve the profession.

I don't think it would affect everyone. The FAA can make an exception to an individual cariers Flight Ops. But, I agree it is another example of the downward spiral. If they want it though, by all means letem have it. They want stupid rules like this, well it is there carrier. They are big boys and girls over there, they can pay the consequences for there actions.

be leaders in improving things not just followers

Absolutely. They however need to lead themselves first and I believe they are. If things get really sh!tty over there, no labor group from another airline is going to follow. They are on there own. I hope they suceed!!

 

[A350]

Stan:

We are leaders.....just not in a way that benefits you......

I still don't get why you guys think we don't have any balls or whatever. We want our company to thrive and grow, not shrink and fail. So we lead by example. We go out of our way to make our company a success.

Do I want to make more money? Of course. But I am not willing to risk my future for a few dollars more now. This is a marathon, not a sprint. I have worked for a union carrier and when the union thing makes sense for JB, then it will make sense to us. But just because it makes sense for us to be union to you doesn't make it a necessity.

A350

 

[800Dog]

I think it could improve the profession. No one is talking about changing the weekly, monthly or hourly limits, just the daily limit. It seems to me that if a person can fly more hours in a day, but not more hours in a week or month or year, that would translate to more days off. How is that bad?

Are you guys asking for a limit as to the number of legs that can be flown? If you increase the 8 hr. daily limit, what kind of impact will that have on the commuter pilots? Will they increase from six legs a day to eight or nine? I used to fly 7 legs a day on the EMB-120 and the CRJ-50 and would have hated to see the schedules if the block hr. limit was raised.

 

[TWA Dude]

It's not about JetBlue, it's what they represent. An upstart airline that's successful threatens everybody else's jobs. Over time costs increase and then another upstart takes their place. A vicious cycle. Capitalism.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

There's been a lot of misinformation written about this flight hour vs. duty hour exemption that is being researched by us. Fact is, the program is till being evaluated by the experts. No decision has been made by any authority whether it will happen or not. The proposal is that JetBlue ONLY will be allowed to exceed the eight hour daily flight time on two legs of DAYLIGHT ( read 6 am to midnight ) flying. If, and that's a BIG IF, an excemption is granted, it will only apply to JetBlue and nobody else. Now, an argument could be made that once the horse is out of the barn, you can't get back in. This may be very true, but it's up to your own representative organizations to fight this battle on their own turf.

To fight this from the outside would be like the JetBlue pilots fighting against more crew bases by other carriers at JFK because it makes it harder for us to find crashpads and commute to work. It's illogical and none of our business. Same thing to fight us about the flight time exemption. It's illogical and none of your business.

As for me, would I do day turns LGB? Problably not, but I would to LAS, SLC, and PHX.

 

[DTW320]

In my opinion you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say that it is none of our (non-JB pilots) business:

To fight this from the outside would be like the JetBlue pilots fighting against more crew bases by other carriers at JFK because it makes it harder for us to find crashpads and commute to work. It's illogical and none of our business. Same thing to fight us about the flight time exemption. It's illogical and none of your business.

but in the same post you say that it is reasonable to conclude that once this is done at one airline it will be tried at others and that those pilots will just have to fight it on their own turf:

Now, an argument could be made that once the horse is out of the barn, you can't get back in. This may be very true, but it's up to your own representative organizations to fight this battle on their own turf.

So which is it? None of our business or something that could create a future battle for us in order to prevent???

 

[IronCityBlue]

logical conclusion

DTW,

You bring up a valid point. Of course it will eventually effect everyone.

But, as long as the weekly and monthly and yearly limits aren't canged, its hard to argue with the fact that changing the rule to duty time/max legs/front side of the clock is much safer than what we have now. Plus the net result won't require less pilots and will likely yield more days off.

Its good to speculate about the concequences down the road, like regional pilots flying 12 legs a day, and other limits being changed as a result, but for now that's purely speculation and constitutes a "straw dummy" approach to analyzing the issue at hand.

As long as the proposed changes happen as advertised, they will result in a safer operation with a greater QOL for pilots. Now, IF the changes happen with no limits and become a "worse case scenario" then I would be against them, but I don't think that's going to happen.

As for the "but what about doing an approach to mins after 12 hours flying and 14 hours duty" I would contend its safer than (again, as its proposed initially) doing the same approach after 8 hours block but 16 hours duty, on your 7th leg of the day, on the back side of the clock. Which as we all know, is perfectly legal.

If we currently had the transcon turn rules in effect and an airline's management proposed to cange the rule to allow the high cycle, back side of the clock, long duty day stuff we currently do, you would see far more "JetBlue is ruining the industry" opinions than you do now, guaranteed.

 

[Stan]

DTW,

You bring up a valid point. Of course it will eventually effect everyone.

But, as long as the weekly and monthly and yearly limits aren't canged, its hard to argue with the fact that changing the rule to duty time/max legs/front side of the clock is much safer than what we have now. Plus the net result won't require less pilots and will likely yield more days off.

Its good to speculate about the concequences down the road, like regional pilots flying 12 legs a day, and other limits being changed as a result, but for now that's purely speculation and constitutes a "straw dummy" approach to analyzing the issue at hand.

As long as the proposed changes happen as advertised, they will result in a safer operation with a greater QOL for pilots. Now, IF the changes happen with no limits and become a "worse case scenario" then I would be against them, but I don't think that's going to happen.

As for the "but what about doing an approach to mins after 12 hours flying and 14 hours duty" I would contend its safer than (again, as its proposed initially) doing the same approach after 8 hours block but 16 hours duty, on your 7th leg of the day, on the back side of the clock. Which as we all know, is perfectly legal.

If we currently had the transcon turn rules in effect and an airline's management proposed to cange the rule to allow the high cycle, back side of the clock, long duty day stuff we currently do, you would see far more "JetBlue is ruining the industry" opinions than you do now, guaranteed.

Of coarse there are other unsfe rules already in place. You should be spending your time and energy trying to fix the problems instead of creating new ones. If you don't think you guys getting an exemption to the 8 hour rule will affect pilots at other airlines in a negative way you are very naive.

 

[IronCityBlue]

rule canging

You appear to be contradicting yourself. You say I should concentrate on fixing the problems not creating new ones. But then you refuse to objectively look at the current issue at hand and its accociated benefits, many of which positively address current problems at hand.

Yeah sure, 8 hours of DUTY per day (or 6, or 3!), all on the front side of the clock, with one or two landings max would equal more safety than what we have now. It would also cause an instant pilot shortage, thereby requiring massive hiring and a recall of all furloughs industry wide. But that's not going to happen, is it?

Remember, the only way to guarantee safety in aviation 100% is to never push back and go flying. So if you're done with the hyperbole and are ready to logically discuss why changing the 8 hour rule with the additional restrictions and limitations previouslly mentioned is LESS SAFE than our current system, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I believe it is SAFER, and will result in improoved QOL, greater efficiency and less tired pilots on their final approach of the day than what we currently have. Maybe I'm naieve, and if I'm convinced I'm wrong I will change my opinion. But knee jerk reactions to straw dummy reasoning that aren't backed up by logic aren't going to change it for me.

I think its possible to change part of the daily rule while at the same time ADDING restrictions that more than make up for the one you provide relief for, can be a win-win for pilots, airlines and safety. Of course, it has to be done right. If it isn't, I will be against it.

 

[32LT10]

Stan:

We are leaders.....just not in a way that benefits you......

I still don't get why you guys think we don't have any balls or whatever. We want our company to thrive and grow, not shrink and fail. So we lead by example. We go out of our way to make our company a success.

Do I want to make more money? Of course. But I am not willing to risk my future for a few dollars more now. This is a marathon, not a sprint. I have worked for a union carrier and when the union thing makes sense for JB, then it will make sense to us. But just because it makes sense for us to be union to you doesn't make it a necessity.

A350

Is there picketline somewhere you could cross? Sounds like the words of a.....What is the word I am looking for? Sc...something along those lines

 

[32LT10]

There's been a lot of misinformation written about this flight hour vs. duty hour exemption that is being researched by us. Fact is, the program is till being evaluated by the experts. No decision has been made by any authority whether it will happen or not. The proposal is that JetBlue ONLY will be allowed to exceed the eight hour daily flight time on two legs of DAYLIGHT ( read 6 am to midnight ) flying. If, and that's a BIG IF, an excemption is granted, it will only apply to JetBlue and nobody else. Now, an argument could be made that once the horse is out of the barn, you can't get back in. This may be very true, but it's up to your own representative organizations to fight this battle on their own turf.

To fight this from the outside would be like the JetBlue pilots fighting against more crew bases by other carriers at JFK because it makes it harder for us to find crashpads and commute to work. It's illogical and none of our business. Same thing to fight us about the flight time exemption. It's illogical and none of your business.

As for me, would I do day turns LGB? Problably not, but I would to LAS, SLC, and PHX.

Sure change the rules of the industry just to suit JBLU. That is a smart and "safe" thing to do. You guys crack me up. More days off? Oh how about if another carrier, say Virgin America wants to fly 38 hours in seven days so their pilots can have some sort of benefit. You and I might not see it nor want it but they REALLY want it. Now you bozos have together screwed the entire industry. JFK-LGB-JFK in one duty period is too much flying and if you are successful in getting the change I hope the lawyers are all over you guys when the first incident happens. This is going to be real test of political power and with any luck the additional cost of lobbying the FAA and ATA will further drain the coffers of the JBLU budget. The guys that this will hurt the most are the Regional pilots. Just look at that accident with the J32 in MO recently. Long duty day, lots of legs and it was all "legal".

Another reason to wish JBLU would disappear

 

[A350]

32LT:

Another pilot who doesn't know the meaning of the "scab" word? Now JB pilots are scabs? Is that what you are implying?

You and those of your ilk are running your mouths like a bunch of babies.......

A350

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Why does everyone want JetBlue to Fail?


Misery loves company.

 

[32LT10]

32LT:

Another pilot who doesn't know the meaning of the "scab" word? Now JB pilots are scabs? Is that what you are implying?

You and those of your ilk are running your mouths like a bunch of babies.......

A350

No the pilot I quoted, YOU by chance, implied he/you were an opportunist and would only do what was good for him/you. That is the modus of scab. Like it or not, sacrificing the group for your own personal gain is what it is all about. The strike just has not happened yet for you to do your offical rite of passage.

baby? Hardly. A hardened veteran that can sniff out the likes of you a mile away.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

ICB, DTW, Stan: You're right. It is a contradiction in the sense that the action of one carrier could have profound effects on all other carriers. And while the pilot group of the first carrier may want to embrace the changes for them, the other pilot groups may not.

For an example, it wasn't too long ago that Delta would not carry offline pilots in the jumpseat due to a contractual agreement. While off line pilots could jump up and down to protest this, it did no good. Lesson learned was not to let the jumpseat be a bargining chip the other pilot's contract negotiations.

Let's say we get the exemption. Of course other carriers' management may want to do the same. Here's another bargining chip that could be used to gain back loses in previous contracts or even get ahead. Conversely, it may not be such a bad thing after all, if the appropriate constraints are negotiated. Increased productivity, better QOL, more pay, less time away from home. Again, it all falls back on the individual negotiating committee to build that into your contract.

Other areas perceived as threats but had constraints installed were CVRs and FOQA. Pilots didn't want them, but they eventually got there. However, constraints are installed on these so they can't be used against the pilot.

Whether good or bad, the exemption may be granted. Then again, it's up to those pilot groups to act on it individually as it applies to them. Remember, the precedent has already been set in Europe on this and a lot of the European procedures have migrated across the Atlantic already ( BR for fog, SIC Type ratings, etc.).

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

I worked for a Legacy union carrier, and another LCC based in ATL (with a so called in house union) and JB has been the best job yet. Maybe when there is 2-3K pilots on the list a union might be the answer, but it works fine now without one. My guess is the guys wanting JB to fail are the ones who got turned down or never called. I agree with hair-on fire...misery loves company

 

[jetblue320]

Because if they get the rule changed it affects everyone not just them. It is a selfish act that does nothing to improve the profession. When you work for a profitable airline and do nothing to raise the bar and actually try and lower it in some aspects you get called on it.

Again I don't want them to fail, I want them to thrive. I just want the pilots to stand up for themselves and be leaders in improving things not just followers.

Stan,

This is your opinion and you are entitled to it, no matter how strongly you feel about it. Along that line, others are entitled to theirs as well, right? And although you personally feel "we" are lowering "your" bar, "we" are of the opinion that "we" have raised "our" bar very high amongst our little airline.

As far as "us" being leaders, well, once again, we have lead "our" little airline quite high in both operation standards and accomplishments. We have "stood up" quite high within our own ranks, thank you very much. Whether you like it or not, JB has far surpassed many hurdles and weathered an extremely tough competative environment despite the lack of support from others. We do what we do for the good of our fellow JB Crewmembers. Call it selfish if you wish, that too, is your choice.

If we were part of a national/fraternal organization (ie ALPA) believe you me, we would be fighting tooth and nail for whatever the majority ruled. However, we are not part of any other league, and face facts, this is business, and as long as we operate above board and honestly, all is fair.

See ya........

 

[mrnolmts]

I don't get it? The neagtive BS is just out of hand.

I don't know that "everyone" wants JB to fail. However, I can point to a couple of things that would "stir the pot" a bit, and they have both been mentioned already:
- Exceeding 8 hrs block/day
- 190 pay scale
I don't think either of these two things sit too well with the majority of airline pilots, thus the bashing? Just a guess, tho

 

[Stan]

Stan,

This is your opinion and you are entitled to it, no matter how strongly you feel about it. Along that line, others are entitled to theirs as well, right? And although you personally feel "we" are lowering "your" bar, "we" are of the opinion that "we" have raised "our" bar very high amongst our little airline.

As far as "us" being leaders, well, once again, we have lead "our" little airline quite high in both operation standards and accomplishments. We have "stood up" quite high within our own ranks, thank you very much. Whether you like it or not, JB has far surpassed many hurdles and weathered an extremely tough competative environment despite the lack of support from others. We do what we do for the good of our fellow JB Crewmembers. Call it selfish if you wish, that too, is your choice.

If we were part of a national/fraternal organization (ie ALPA) believe you me, we would be fighting tooth and nail for whatever the majority ruled. However, we are not part of any other league, and face facts, this is business, and as long as we operate above board and honestly, all is fair.

See ya........

I am not talking about JetBlue the airline raising the bar, they have already done an excellent job of putting out a product that people want and will pay for. I am talking about the JetBlue Pilots, who up until recently worked for one of the only profitable airlines out there, stepping up and taking a leadership position in the profession and raising the bar so when and if the industry turns around there is something to shoot for.