Why are the 1700+ trannies pilots not recalling their status reps?

[becket]

FWIW, the latest from SWA is that Gary really is extremely pissed off over this. Not sure if that means he is going to his room to smoke and color or if he is really to go deal some 717's, but a guy I know at the GO says he has never seen him this PO'ed before.

"Gary" can STFU. This wouldn't have happened if it was a remotely fair deal.

Airtran guys should take it up the A$$ to keep "Gary" happy? Screw him.

 

[Taco Rocket]

If GK and the BOD are so good why couldn't they put HP or HP/US out of business? Please no east/west BS -- I observed that eliminating US appeared to be in SWA's business plan in the mid 2000's, and that didn't happen. This too is the company with the most overlap with WN and thus would be a logical candidate for a "stroke of genious."

One thing you guys will figure out, if you have not done so already, is GK and his BOD are extremely good at what they do. This Airtran deal from his desk was a stroke of genious. Yes he took out his closest competitor, he also eliminated a low cost carrier. The only one left that has any size is Jetblue, and there are rumors with them too. Could be a scenario where SWA is the only low cost standing. ATL is a market where you can't go in with 6 flights a day and compete. Jetblue tried that and got kicked out of ATL so fast they forgot they were even there. ATL is not DEN where you have two weak carriers (UAL, F9) to compete against. In ATL, DAL was not going (they still won't) to just let SWA come in and make it a DEN. Pretty much SWA knew that in ATL, we either buy airtran or stay out. DAL has too much power in ATL otherwise.

Many people bring up what happened with Frontier, but that was different. GK, and the BOD once again showed their intelligence. This was never about the pilots. In that case you have a bankrupt airline going into a bidding process, and there is only one bidder in Republic. GK knew if he threw his name in the hat for the bid, he could drive up the price of Frontier (wich he did), look at their financials, and then pull out at the last minute making sure Republic paid way more than what F9 was worth. Also, Republic had already invested money into F9 so he knew that they were not going to walk away without an airline. He just made sure they overpaid.

He also managed to get CAL to just hand them slots to EWR, how you ask? By being a PEST to DAL/USAirways, blocking every attempt at their slot swap. He drove DAL nuts to the point that when CAL/UAL merged, CAL figured it was just easier to hand SWA slots than deal with them later since they were going to have to give up slots in their merger anyways. Don't underestimate this guy, and I know you personally have not but ALPA I think has. They have pissed him off more than this one time. Nothing personal but this might not be SWAPA vs ALPA, this might be more of SWA (GK) vs. ALPA.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

And you know stop attaching vulgarity to the AAI vote. Watch your mouth and stop the properganda non sense. This deal sucked and everyone knows it in the industry.

gary,

alpa has decided that after your personal offer to our pilot group we feel we deserve more. thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to meet with us personally, however, we want more.

sincerely,
alpa

better?
alpa prob refers to him as gary. he ain't our friend, he's our boss. swa is the luv airline, but man there's also prison love. oh it's still love, just depends on whether you're pitchin' or catchin' if ya' enjoy it.

 

[Empennage]

And you know stop attaching vulgarity to the AAI vote. Watch your mouth and stop the properganda non sense. This deal sucked and everyone knows it in the industry.

JT, please climb off your soap box and high horse.

The ALPA Airtran MEC pulled a bait and switch to its pilots. The 1700 of your guys should have had the opportunity to vote for their future. So you, who has spent countless hours and effort each day exercising your freedom of speech and ensuring every pilot on here knew your opinion, would have had your vote. Yes it would have been a no and bravo.

The MEC had a duty to fairly represent its pilots. The MEC should have chosen to educate its pilot group on the benefits and risks involved with either voting yes or voting no. Have you not heard that voting is power? Do you not know what many groups of people in this country have done to earn the right to simply vote? Fundamentally speaking, the MEC took away every single right of every single Airtran pilot. That is hard to dismiss or ignore. If this thing goes very bad, you will have several thousand Airtran pilots asking what, why and how. It is foolish and naive to think that the no vote was a good, solid and respectable decision.

Lastly, lets try to be honest. The average seniority loss for airtran pilots was LESS THAN 30% from relative. My gain was paltry and not realized for over a decade. So please spare us from dramatic posts. The deal in many ways leveled and equalized as fair and equitable overall.

Like I told you last night this now is what it is. I have accepted the vote. While I believe your MEC completely failed and sold out its pilot group, it is out of my hands and it is out of your hands. I would not, as an elected representative, taken that decision out of the hands of my pilots. It was much too critical.

It is time to move on and walk away from flight info for a bit. Please, take a break.

 

[ArmadilloJackal]

Buying Jetblue will sink you guys. They have a lot of debt.

After our merger announcment the USA Today came out with that front page article saying this was the last good merger in the industry. And explained the financials of other possible mergers. That may have changed since last September, but I have not heard otherwise.

That used to be true. They've been steadily paying down debt with free cash and increasing liquidity to about 1.2B. While that's good for financial stability, it also makes them a little prettier at the prom, unfortunately.

 

[Empennage]

Well the whole industry has changed since you were hired a SWA. Your expectations were gonna change anyway even without this merger. This merger is a clear sign of that. SWA can not compete with us so they bought us. What happens when the next Airtran comes along, and the next one, and the next one.

What has changed is M/B and AGM post 2008 has given a sense of entitlement to pilots at the weaker, lower paying, less desirable airlines to seek gains at the expense of the pilots at the acquiring, stronger, higher paying airline...

Wrong. The acquisition is a clear sign your ability to remain a long-term, viable competitor in the low cost airline industry was in jeopardy. Airtran had been seeking a buyer. SWA had been looking to acquire another entity. Without Frontier your statement may have held some water.

See the US govt. As debt levels increase, the cot of servicing that debt threatens everything the borrower embodies.

 

[SplitBar]

Can't say I blame Air Tran. I don't have a dog in the fight but it seems like they can't do any worse and can only do better and yes, the integration will still happen. Good luck guys.

 

[redflyer65]

If GK and the BOD are so good why couldn't they put HP or HP/US out of business? Please no east/west BS -- I observed that eliminating US appeared to be in SWA's business plan in the mid 2000's, and that didn't happen. This too is the company with the most overlap with WN and thus would be a logical candidate for a "stroke of genious."

I'd say SW has been pretty successful of ruining some of USair's profits over the years. Run them out of business? Kinda hard to do..look how long AMR runs without a profit.

Southwest has run them out of BWI, taken over in LAS (US closed their base), and run full planes with profits out of the old American West base in PHX. How is that not 'doing well' against US?

RF

 

[gt1900]

No, they didn't pull a bait and switch. This is just typical AAI union debachery. AAI has some great guys in its union, but there are a few that I just don't understand how they got where they did. You need to look at the history of AAI's negotiations, both ALPA, and Pre-ALPA. The original TA1 that was brought to the pilot group from the NPA back in 2007 that the NC signed off on was a complete debacle. There were literally almost fights in the crew room guys were so pissed. The Union tried to sell it and literally got chit caned because of it. It was so bad the union pulled the TA before we even got to vote on it. They took it back to the company to try and make it better. Thus TA2. They brought TA2 out and again pushed it as the greatest thing since sliced bread even after the pilot group told them what we were looking for. TA2 was better, but still got turned down by 65%. Thats when the pilots had had enough and began looking into ALPA. The only reason TA3 (if you want to call it that) passed last year was becasue of the SWA buyout. Otherwise, that would have been turned down as well. There seems to be a major disconect between the AAI Negotiating commitee and the AAI pilots. Not just in this case, but historically as well. Hell, we could go back to the contract that was turned down, and then passed in 2000 that happened the exact same way. I can't explain why it happens, but it happens. The AAI MEC got bombarded with emails on this SLI, and they voted how their pilots wanted them to vote. Even if it went out for a vote, it wouldn't have passed. Maybe 3 weeks ago it would have, but when all the details came out and when everyone saw how the protections just weren't going to protect a huge portion of the pilot group, it became glaringly obvious how bad it was. The MEC voted the way the pilot group wanted them too. Just like the SWA guys trust their BOD to make the right decision, we trust our MEC to make the right decision (at least most of us do).

As far as the seniority loss goes, the average seniority loss was 22%. BUT, and this is a big BUT. The only reason it was 22% was becasue of the staple and the guys on the bottom. Those guys didn't lose any seniority since they were already on the bottom. That balanced out the majority of the guys who took 30%+ losses. If everyone would have taken a 22% loss in seniority, this might have passed. But the simple fact is anyone with much more then 3 or 4 years of service at AAI took 30%+ losses. And believe it or not, the senior FO's who lost their upgrades not only took losses, but they took pay cuts as well since they lost out on upgrade for the next 10+ years. AAI pay actually raises faster over the next three years then SWA pay does do to the contract that AAI just passed. This was not a good deal for the AAI guys, and thats why the SWAPA BOD passed it down unanimously!

 

[madjack]

"and believe it or not, the senior FO's who lost their upgrades not only took losses, but they took pay cuts as well since they lost out on upgrade for the next 10+ years."

Everyone would be happy if you guys never got on the property, period, but you got bought because the industry cannot support the number of airlines that are out there...i will "lose" my upgrade to, the difference I won't get a pay raise while doing it...get over yourselves, your expectation for upgrade at AAI changed the second you were bought at SWA...as did mine...

 

[fam62c]

gary,

alpa has decided that after your personal offer to our pilot group we feel we deserve more. thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to meet with us personally, however, we want more.

sincerely,
alpa

better?
alpa prob refers to him as gary. he ain't our friend, he's our boss. swa is the luv airline, but man there's also prison love. oh it's still love, just depends on whether you're pitchin' or catchin' if ya' enjoy it.

Actually, I'm not sure the AT pilots do want more in terms of money (they will probably end up with less), they just don't want to take a large DOH reduction that will stay with them forever. SW threw a lot of money at this deal and a lot of it will probably come out from here. I don't see any longevity bumps for senior AT FO's, that's gone. I don't see any AT pilots getting SW pay until they are SW pilots, that's gone. The 717 may pay less than the 737 to make up for any inefficiencies related to that fleet....too soon to tell. Will "out of order" junior AT CA's get full SW CA pay? They sure don't have to, SW/SWAPA could equalize the pay for everyone in this group (junior AT CA's and senior SW FO's with earlier DOH's) to make it more acceptable to the SW FO's.

So really, from the point of view of SW management, the deal that AT just shot down was probably the worst case scenario from a cost standpoint. The arbitrator can award a seniority list but SW/SWAPA will determine who gets what pay and benefits and when they get them. AT/ALPA made it clear that they don't want money, they want a more conventional seniority list integration. It's always a compromise, you can't have it all.

 

[madjack]

"Actually, I'm not sure the AT pilots do want more in terms of money (they will probably end up with less), they just don't want to take a large DOH reduction that will stay with them forever."

Save the BS...you guys are going to get the money and you know it (DFR/SWAPA, CBA language etc...), you want the seniority AND the money, nothing altruistic, just greed plain and simple...

 

[JT12345]

"Actually, I'm not sure the AT pilots do want more in terms of money (they will probably end up with less), they just don't want to take a large DOH reduction that will stay with them forever."

Save the BS...you guys are going to get the money and you know it (DFR/SWAPA, CBA language etc...), you want the seniority AND the money, nothing altruistic, just greed plain and simple...

If you could look at the faces around here you would think otherwise. The anguish is there.

You think we know it and have a crystal ball"? (sarcasim)


You know the MEC was elected to lead the group.

You elect representatives to do the due diligence for you.

Also brave leaders (not politicans) protect their constituents from themselves.

 

[gt1900]

"Actually, I'm not sure the AT pilots do want more in terms of money (they will probably end up with less), they just don't want to take a large DOH reduction that will stay with them forever."

Save the BS...you guys are going to get the money and you know it (DFR/SWAPA, CBA language etc...), you want the seniority AND the money, nothing altruistic, just greed plain and simple...

Actually, I think your wrong on that one. Most AAI pilots came to AAI knowing they would never be the highest paid pilots in the industry. Many of the AAI pilots are hear because they got furloughed, their company went under, or just wanted to work for stable airline who consistently made money. Many of those pilots were once the highest paid pilots in the industry. We have a lot of UAL guys who were at the top of the pay scale when UAL fell. Heck, we even have retired DAL guys who are sitting in the right seat after they took their retirement and ran. They know that money isn't the most important thing in this industry. The ones that wanted the money left. Everyone I know has always been OK with being right in the middle when it comes to pay. The difference is that GK has usually got what he wanted from the SWA pilots when he threw money at them. It doesn't work that way for the AAI pilots. For most of us, money has never been the driving force behind our career expectations. And IMO, thats why this failed.

 

[madjack]

"The difference is that GK has usually got what he wanted from the SWA pilots when he threw money at them. It doesn't work that way for the AAI pilots. For most of us, money has never been the driving force behind our career expectations. And IMO, thats why this failed."

YEAH RIGHT...maybe SWA survived because we work with our management vs telling them to stuff it (like you guys just did)...just wondering why those UAL/DAL pilots did not start out at your wonderful airline...do you actually believe the BS you are spouting...jeez