Who's Flying Your Airplane? NO OUTSOURCING

[SuperFLUF]

You're absolutely right, they're going to just cut a check to each of the 70+ seaters and say "thanks for your service." I don't know how much money United-Continental has in the bank, but I would bet they don't want to spend any fraction of it paying early termination fees to Skywest Inc, Republic Holdings, Trans States Holdings, or Mesa Holdings.

...and they're not just going to cut a check to give us the 50% raise in total compensation that we seek either.

They only way they do it is if they cost of not doing it is greater.

And don't give me that "they can't afford it" bs, they just gave themselves 150% increases right off the bat. Who knows what sort of increase they'll get next year. And pre-paying 175 million dollar loans 13 years early....... the list goes on.

I'm not talking about demanding money that's not there. I'm talking about driving a hard bargain. Management never fails to play their role at the negotiating table, yet time and time again the pilots don't play theirs. Its not personal, its business.

 

[doh]

You're absolutely right, they're going to just cut a check to each of the 70+ seaters and say "thanks for your service." I don't know how much money United-Continental has in the bank, but I would bet they don't want to spend any fraction of it paying early termination fees to Skywest Inc, Republic Holdings, Trans States Holdings, or Mesa Holdings.

I might be missing something here, but aren't they negotiating to move flying in house as contracts with feeders expire? Why would they have to cut a big check?

 

[Cpt Oveur]

If they were to terminate the contract early, like as soon as the merger was complete. Thats what I meant

 

[Flopgut]

Doesn't it sound more likely that this phased withdrawal of United Express carriers would come as the result of not granting any new contracts, and not extending any of the current contracts?

CAL pilots held the scope line, and it has been no easy task. They are an example many of us should look to. The UAL pilots, hate to say it, but have a small responsibility to it. It's not their demise, and it can be something they can and will overcome. The blame game only points to things done in the past. If you want to get the flying back on property, isn't is more realistic to work with them, phasing their planes on to the mainline property, perhaps their pilots/flight attendants/mechanics as well?

If we [CAL] can hold the line on scope and get the 70 seat airplanes back to mainline perhaps some form of ALPA fragmentation policy could provide for a mainline transition for the pilots flying them? (Except for the non-ALPA types) But then again, why support that sort of thing?! I wish it were part of the discussion, but we can't even suggest that maybe Skywest and Shuttle consider not participating in blatantly violating our legal contract! How are you suppose to "work with" that type pilot?

 

[BobbyBiplane]

If we [CAL] can hold the line on scope and get the 70 seat airplanes back to mainline perhaps some form of ALPA fragmentation policy could provide for a mainline transition for the pilots flying them? (Except for the non-ALPA types) But then again, why support that sort of thing?! I wish it were part of the discussion, but we can't even suggest that maybe Skywest and Shuttle consider not participating in blatantly violating our legal contract! How are you suppose to "work with" that type pilot?

Idiot

 

[Raoul Duke]

You know not of what you speak.

The arbitration that will take place over the violation of CAL's scope clause is not binding. It is just expedited arbitration. An arbitrator is not a judge. Because of CAL mgmt's crafty wording of their "interpretation" of the contract this is categorized as a minor dispute and must be arbitrated before it goes to court.

You need to go and brush up on how the RLA works. You are correct that it is a minor dispute. You are not correct that if a party loses an arbitration they can just go to court. It does not work like that. Review of arbitration decisions are extremely limited (which will almost certainly not apply in this instance).

 

[Flopgut]

Idiot

Read a few of your posts. You're a real genius. Go to hell clown.

 

[777forever]

So CAL/UAL pilots will negotiate to slowly transition flying back to mainline? Man there are some long term contracts still left of the table. Management ask for something steep in return for such a task, and what will pilots give up in return? You can kiss any chance of a decent payraise and workrules(which you guys BADLY need) goodbye. I mean, its just embarrassing what legacy pilots make compared to SWA.

 

[doh]

If they were to terminate the contract early, like as soon as the merger was complete. Thats what I meant

That would be strictly a company decision since the pilots are not asking for that.

 

[doh]

So CAL/UAL pilots will negotiate to slowly transition flying back to mainline? Man there are some long term contracts still left of the table. Management ask for something steep in return for such a task, and what will pilots give up in return? You can kiss any chance of a decent payraise and workrules(which you guys BADLY need) goodbye. I mean, its just embarrassing what legacy pilots make compared to SWA.

Actually, they shouldn't give up a thing. There is pressure on management to get the merger completed from the stockholders. Management also can't cash in until the deal is done. As you say, there are some long term contracts still out there, so management can plan and ease into the transition. That also gives the pilots at the feeder time to get their ducks in a row to apply for the added positions mainline will need to fill.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The mainline MECs and pilot groups created this mess...Not the regional pilots. Many of us have now made a career at these regional airlines because that is where the jobs have been the last decade.

The mainline MECs and pilot groups can either INCLUDE me in a solution, or they can EXCLUDE me in a solution....Choose wisely, because I will not support a solution that EXCLUDES me....If that is the choice, you can count on me and others doing what we need to protect our jobs.....

 

[Draginass]

The mainline MECs and pilot groups created this mess...Not the regional pilots. Many of us have now made a career at these regional airlines because that is where the jobs have been the last decade.

The mainline MECs and pilot groups can either INCLUDE me in a solution, or they can EXCLUDE me in a solution....Choose wisely, because I will not support a solution that EXCLUDES me....If that is the choice, you can count on me and others doing what we need to protect our jobs.....

And what tangible leverage to do YOU have in this fight?

 

[JoeMerchant]

And what tangible leverage to do YOU have in this fight?

Don't you worry about that....If you choose to exclude me, you will find out.....

 

[Flopgut]

The mainline MECs and pilot groups created this mess...Not the regional pilots. Many of us have now made a career at these regional airlines because that is where the jobs have been the last decade.

The mainline MECs and pilot groups can either INCLUDE me in a solution, or they can EXCLUDE me in a solution....Choose wisely, because I will not support a solution that EXCLUDES me....If that is the choice, you can count on me and others doing what we need to protect our jobs.....

Your terms suck Joe. You insist on your career needs being met firstmost by all and could care less wether or not you or anybody with you same imperative is violating another's contract. You are probably going to feel "excluded" and find yourself shocked at how little control you're going to have. You are a lost cause Joe. It will be a better thing to make an example of you, than try and rehab your attitude.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Your terms suck Joe. You insist on your career needs being met firstmost by all and could care less wether or not you or anybody with you same imperative is violating another's contract. You are probably going to feel "excluded" and find yourself shocked at how little control you're going to have. You are a lost cause Joe. It will be a better thing to make an example of you, than try and rehab your attitude.

This is exactly why ALPA has failed with regards to scope. Flop, let's say your contract is going to put me out of work...Do you really expect me to support putting myself out of work? In addition to being an idiot, you really don't even know how unionism works....That ain't the way to build bridges and find support from others.

You guys created the problem...I'm not going to take the fall for your mistakes....

 

[doh]

Joe, what can you do if they don't renew your contract? I'm sympathetic to your plight, but I don't see anything that any regional pilot can do. You would have to have a scope clause that is binding on the mainline, and that won't happen. What else do you have in mind?

 

[Flopgut]

This is exactly why ALPA has failed with regards to scope. Flop, let's say your contract is going to put me out of work...Do you really expect me to support putting myself out of work? In addition to being an idiot, you really don't even know how unionism works....That ain't the way to build bridges and find support from others.

You guys created the problem...I'm not going to take the fall for your mistakes....

Unionism?! Don't lecture me about unionism Joe. First rule in unionism is to not violate another's contract. That's key. The CAL contract is primary to anything UAL signed or any agreement another group works under currently. If a worker in another union can't do a job without violating another worker's valid contract then that job never existed in the first place. That IS unionism. Look, I've been in three unions as a pilot. One was a closed shop. You know what that means? Be thankful ALPA isn't a closed shop Joe. Because you wouldn't be where you are.

 

[777forever]

Actually, they shouldn't give up a thing. There is pressure on management to get the merger completed from the stockholders. Management also can't cash in until the deal is done. As you say, there are some long term contracts still out there, so management can plan and ease into the transition. That also gives the pilots at the feeder time to get their ducks in a row to apply for the added positions mainline will need to fill.

Well, good luck to everyone. I'm going to grab some popcorn and watch this one from the front row. When you throw in the sideshow that is Capt Pierce and Capt Morse throwing public jabs at each other, I think this whole thing will get real ugly.

Richard Anderson, Ed Bastian, and Lee Moak are somewhere toasting champagne...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Unionism?! Don't lecture me about unionism Joe. First rule in unionism is to not violate another's contract. That's key. The CAL contract is primary to anything UAL signed or any agreement another group works under currently. If a worker in another union can't do a job without violating another worker's valid contract then that job never existed in the first place. That IS unionism. Look, I've been in three unions as a pilot. One was a closed shop. You know what that means? Be thankful ALPA isn't a closed shop Joe. Because you wouldn't be where you are.

I've never violated anyone's contract....Keep poking your finger in my eye and that WILL change...ALPA never has been a union. It's a very loose association of independant contractors who bid against one another for work....

The mainline should have kept the small plane flying in house as they once did...However the big egos at the mainline were too good to fly "little airplanes"....Too bad...so sad.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well, good luck to everyone. I'm going to grab some popcorn and watch this one from the front row. When you throw in the sideshow that is Capt Pierce and Capt Morse throwing public jabs at each other, I think this whole thing will get real ugly.

Richard Anderson, Ed Bastian, and Lee Moak are somewhere toasting champagne...

You got that right.