Who is bringing more to merger, NWA or DAL

[DTW320]

Last but not least, what about the retirement issue. DAL voted their retirement away for better work rules and pay. NWA kept a frozen plan in exchange for worse rules and less pay. That's oil and water right there folks. Bringing NWA people up to parity without adddressing retirement for DAL people will not work.

Wouldn't DAL management assert that your B plan brings your young group up to parity with the NWA A plan? NWA guys with less than a 60% FAE A plan on date of freezing got a targeted B plan aiming for 50% FAE, very similar to yours right?

Neither one of us voted on our pensions in exchange for anything, with the exception that NWA pilots voted to freeze the plan to avoid a distress termination. DAL's was distress terminated in CH11. NWA insisted we keep the pension, albeit frozen, to avoid having the PBGC crash the post BK stock party. We both took huge % payrate cuts. DAL was starting from a higher point. On average DAL payrates are 10% higher than NWA. Labor CASM is 10% higher at DAL according to the E&FA analysis.

 

[DTW320]

Yes, but they will get our better work rules if they merge with us. I think it would be good for our management to try to buy out the top NWA guys, sure. But, we will have to be brought up to their retirement "worth", and I think they are working on that right now. I agree though--500 or so top NWA guys leaving would be good for everyone, especially junior pilots. I don't know if that would happen though.

Bye Bye--General Lee

How would they buy out the top NWA guys? Under federal pension law the only way to terminate a frozen DB plan is for it to be fully funded, which it's not, or to distress terminate it in BK. Most of our guys aren't going past 60 due to their frozen pensions.

 

[dbrownie]

Not trying to be flame bait, but the question has recently been asked around NWA.

NWA

- Good financial numbers, better than DAL
- Freighter division
- 747-400
- A330
- 68 787
- Pacific division, Tokyo hub 747-400, 747,757,a320
- less domestic delays due to more newer and efficient hubs

can't think of more right now...

Jetflier:
How about;

-Better crew bases at DAL

-Newer planes at DAL

-More wide bodies at DAL

-Better pay at DAL

- A mgt team that doesn't despise it's employees
at DAL

-A more unified pilot group at DAL?
(not sure on that one but they appear so)

Dave B

 

[General Lee]

Wouldn't DAL management assert that your B plan brings your young group up to parity with the NWA A plan? NWA guys with less than a 60% FAE A plan on date of freezing got a targeted B plan aiming for 50% FAE, very similar to yours right?

Neither one of us voted on our pensions in exchange for anything, with the exception that NWA pilots voted to freeze the plan to avoid a distress termination. DAL's was distress terminated in CH11. NWA insisted we keep the pension, albeit frozen, to avoid having the PBGC crash the post BK stock party. We both took huge % payrate cuts. DAL was starting from a higher point. On average DAL payrates are 10% higher than NWA. Labor CASM is 10% higher at DAL according to the E&FA analysis.

I would think you would want a higher labor CASM at NWA? Right? Do you like your current wages?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[EdTeachLives!]

DTW320

In your B plan at NWA, what is the contribution % and what is the % that the company matches on your 401k?

There are some EF&A numbers floating around, but some of their other info was pretty flawed. Go figure. I mean it is just all ALPA, you'd think the numbers would be easy to retrieve and verify. Guess I answered my own ?. It is ALPA.

Ed

 

[DTW320]

I would think you would want a higher labor CASM at NWA? Right? Do you like your current wages?


Bye Bye--General Lee

No! I'd like to get the DAL payrates vs ours. There are some things in our contract that I like better than DAL's. Just pointing out that our average 10% difference in payrates (not 40% as some have said here) doesn't explain the 50% difference in profit, not to mention the difference in operating margin/debt/cash on hand as a multiple of monthly expense, as some folks here have used as an excuse.

 

[General Lee]

No! I'd like to get the DAL payrates vs ours. There are some things in our contract that I like better than DAL's. Just pointing out that our average 10% difference in payrates (not 40% as some have said here) doesn't explain the 50% difference in profit, not to mention the difference in operating margin/debt/cash on hand as a multiple of monthly expense, as some folks here have used as an excuse.

All of that operating margin/debt/cash could be changed with a multitude of Winter storms and delays. Hey, we both just got out of BK, neither of us are financial powerhouses just yet. Goldman Sachs said we could produce an extra $850 million a year combining companies. We'll see how we do after a year being together....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

DTW320

In your B plan at NWA, what is the contribution % and what is the % that the company matches on your 401k?

There are some EF&A numbers floating around, but some of their other info was pretty flawed. Go figure. I mean it is just all ALPA, you'd think the numbers would be easy to retrieve and verify. Guess I answered my own ?. It is ALPA.

Ed

Ed,

It's complicated (like you said....it is ALPA). The official % is currently 6% and it goes to 8% later. This is what new hires get. Those hired before 9/2007 get an annual amount, derived from a complex formula factoring in age, length of service, frozen A-plan amount, and assumed pay progression, that is designed to produce a lump sum at retirement equal to an actuarial 50% FAE monthly benefit.

Translation(mine anyway): senior guys whose frozen A-plan already equals or exceeds 50% FAE get 0%. The further below 50% FAE that a pilot's frozen A plan is, the more B plan money they get. It's not expressed as a % of current earnings but works out to 20% + for some junior guys.

 

[DTW320]

All of that operating margin/debt/cash could be changed with a multitude of Winter storms and delays.

Well, 2007 numbers did include last winter.
Besides, not a factor....Pennekamp and AlGore say that global warming will stop those events. After the merger, when a NWA guy offers to take you ice fishin, take him up on it while you still can..

 

[Truckdriver]

So I guess the old guys with frozen pensions would get no defined contribution money and those without the pension would get the money to bring them up to 50% FAE. I could go for that. The percentage we are currently getting would have to go up quite a bit for me to get 50% FAE. Why don't we also have the formula work out so that we can retire at age 60 with 50% FAE. We need to keep the old guys heading out the door buying RV's, t-shirts from truck stops, and straw hats to stimulate the economy.

 

[SSDD]

Who brings more to the table??? Well, Delta of course!!!!!!!!

DL brings The General, and now his offspring, Fins :laugh:

 

[PuffDriver]

This thread is doing nobody any good. My suggestion to my fellow DAL pilots is to let it lie.

 

[another cfii]

Did anybody mention anything about company culture, morale between the 2 companies?? I'm not gonna give my 2 cents, because most of us that either work at DL/NW or commute on DL/NW would know the answer to that.

Pay, scope, job protection are all important issues, but maybe we should also think about how the culture, morale is gonna change post-merger?

All the analysts say that the merger won't be beneficial unless we (labor) are in favor of it, but so far on this cyberspace, i don't feel the luv' from both camps....

 

[737 Pylt]

I think most of us would be ok with a staple at mainline. But that isn't even acceptable to the Delta pilots. They would have to take "undesirables" with "no degree" and "10 DUIs" and then their squadron mates would have to stoop to the level of flying an RJ or a turboprop for a few years. That's what killed it in 1998.

John:
I didn't know you were a member of the rjdc as well?:laugh:
I'm just kidding. Had those clowns not ruined for the rest of the industry, the staple job might have been, but you can thank John, Dan, Jessie and the rest of the girls like N2264J for that fiasco!

737

 

[DTW320]

So I guess the old guys with frozen pensions would get no defined contribution money and those without the pension would get the money to bring them up to 50% FAE. I could go for that. The percentage we are currently getting would have to go up quite a bit for me to get 50% FAE. Why don't we also have the formula work out so that we can retire at age 60 with 50% FAE. We need to keep the old guys heading out the door buying RV's, t-shirts from truck stops, and straw hats to stimulate the economy.

Truck,
All NWA pilots have an A-plan pension, except those hired after the date of freezing. It's just a difference in how much. Like everything else, it's controversial. The senior guys have frozen pensions equal to 60% of FAE that are based on the old pre-BK W2's. The targeted 50% FAE B plan uses the post-BK W2's to calculate FAE so the discrepancy is big.

Some senior guys are even suing to get some of the B plan money. They feel that even though they have big frozen A-plans, that pension is at risk of future BK's vs the junior guys whose B plan money is theirs regardless of what happens....even though that junior guy's B plan will never equal the $ the senior frozen A-plan dude will see.

So, as usual in this biz, there is enough crap to keep us all fighting each other for years! And that's before the merger! Never a dull moment.

I'm all for getting more senior guys to head for the exits.