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Who is bringing more to merger, NWA or DAL

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jetflier

jetflier

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Posts
718
Not trying to be flame bait, but the question has recently been asked around NWA.

NWA

- Good financial numbers, better than DAL
- Freighter division
- 747-400
- A330
- 68 787
- Pacific division, Tokyo hub 747-400, 747,757,a320
- less domestic delays due to more newer and efficient hubs

can't think of more right now...
 
1. True, NWA made more money, but one look at the pay scales will quickly explain that.

2. Freighter division is a good thing.

3. 747-400: Sure, it's big and pretty, but with oil prices high, and likely to climb more, that's a lot of fuel being burned. A330:777. 68 787's: If this merger does happen, all future a/c acquisitions for either company is subject to change.

4. Pacific division, tokyo hub, good. European presence for Delta, as well as Russia and Africa, good.

5. Would like to see numbers for your point on delays. Whatever you gain from your "newer and efficient hubs" you probably lose from having two major hubs up north with winter weather delays.

Let's hope that this merger doesn't happen. It's not like it's being done to make a better airline. It's being done to make rich f#c&ers richer. I am a new hire at Delta, and I don't think a merger would work out very well for new hires at either company.

Good luck to us all!
 
jetflier said:
Not trying to be flame bait, but the question has recently been asked around NWA.

NWA

- Good financial numbers, better than DAL
- Freighter division
- 747-400
- A330
- 68 787
- Pacific division, Tokyo hub 747-400, 747,757,a320
- less domestic delays due to more newer and efficient hubs

can't think of more right now...
Click to expand...

Not trying to flamebait....right. But since you asked:

You bring 1/4 of your fleet in DC-9's not very attractive to us on the Delta side. I know they are paid for but it's all about pay and QOL to most of us. You bring 747's but they pay about the same as our 767's, so big deal. You must have big jet syndrome. You have hubs that have less delays. That is true. Maybe it is also because we have the busiest hub in the world. What is it that they say about MSP, DTW and MEM? Something like snowtown, Motown and Notown. You mention the 787's but if you haven't been keeping up with current events the airplane hasn't even flown yet. The one thing you and I can agree on is that you have the Pacific routes. If it wasn't for that I don't think the merger conversation would be taking place.
 
jetflier said:
Not trying to be flame bait, but the question has recently been asked around NWA.

NWA

- Good financial numbers, better than DAL
- Freighter division
- 747-400
- A330
- 68 787
- Pacific division, Tokyo hub 747-400, 747,757,a320
- less domestic delays due to more newer and efficient hubs

can't think of more right now...
Click to expand...

Who cares? Merger decisions are not going to be influenced by your 0.00001% grasp of the big picture.
 
Tanker1497 said:
Let's hope that this merger doesn't happen. It's not like it's being done to make a better airline. It's being done to make rich f#c&ers richer.
Click to expand...

Well said! I nominate this as the comment of the month! So true.

When a merger happens, the employees fight like dogs at Michael Vick's crib, and management and Wall Street laugh all the way to the bank. Yet here we are saying "my airline is better than yours" (DAL737FO). Pilots are soooo stooooopid sometimes.
 
"You bring 1/4 of your fleet in DC-9's not very attractive to us on the Delta side. I know they are paid for but it's all about pay and QOL to most of us."

DAL does have Boeing/MD 80/88, same as the DC9 and I'm sure they are not being flown to Paris, so we enjoy the same QOL on 'em. As far as pay goes, before CH11 we got paid better than DAL pay rates.

"The one thing you and I can agree on is that you have the Pacific routes. If it wasn't for that I don't think the merger conversation would be taking place."

I totally agree with this statement, and I prefer we don't merge with anyone.
 
As the overpaid consultants would say, this merger brings "synergistic" benefits in which 1+1=3. When you add NWA's Asian routes to Delta's European, Latin American and nacent African routes, you get a truly global carrier than no other airline can compete with effectively. The domestic routes are very complementary too with few hubs overlapping (CVG/MEM/DTW are questionable but you probably won't see many mainline reductions - regionals may take the brunt of cuts). Growth will be in international markets going forward where you have less competition and better control of your margins - the domestic market is too cut-throat.

Strategically it sounds like a good match. Integration, on the other hand, may not be so smooth. Fortunately, the management teams are trying to structure as much as possible before the merger is officially announced. Time will tell...
 
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DAL -
Decent numbers, trending the right direction for growth. Capacity, load factor and revenue all higher.
Pay rates significantly more (15% to 40% higher than NWA's depending on where on the seniority list you look)
Lots of widebodies and widebody international opportunity at Delta, even for new hires.
Fleet:
777:8 (16? on order)
767-400ER: 21
767-300ER: 60
767-300: 20
757: 136
MD90: 16 (9 coming)
MD88: 120 (block may be reduced on some days-aircraft NOT removed)
737-800: 71 (20 on order)
Delta is staffing for a wave of new 737-700's (20 I think) and 777's, rumored to be at least 16 with deliveries starting days from now. Delta is getting 9 MD90's and searching the World for more. Just finishing adding 17 757's configured for long range flying.

NWA -
Very good numbers post bankruptcy, but trending downwards. We need to see the Company start lapping its post bankruptcy reports to get a more clear trend.
Capacity and Load Factors trending downward, has to put pressure on revenue.
Replacing DC-9's as fast as they can obtain RJ's and outsource. 103 to 68 DC9's this year. 72 newer RJ's by the end of 2008. But nobody takes my word for it.
Bright spots are the Asian operation 787 orders and A330's (I guess) In a merger I assume that Delta's long standing partnership with their huge creditor Boeing might come into play on the A330 side. BTW, aren't the A330 and 787 very close to the same? I thought the 787 was intended to be a 767/A330 replacement but know nothing about the 330)
As we look ahead to 2008, I’d like to provide you an overview of the flying plan as it relates to fleet utilization and pilot hiring.

Fleet

The level of flight operations is set based on the scheduled marketing plan for 2008. According to that plan, by the end of ’08, Northwest will operate a total mainline fleet of 329 aircraft - 269 narrow body and 60 wide bodies. The following are some specifics with regard to each fleet.

747-400 – Northwest will operate an additional daily frequency between Detroit and Amsterdam utilizing the 747-400 between June and October.

747 Freighters - In 2008, we will reduce 747 freighter flying. Following the recent retirement of an additional J freighter, we will utilize a core fleet of ten aircraft. Eight aircraft will be actively flying (down two from 2007) but at significantly higher utilization. One will remain available as a spare and one will be cycled through a scheduled maintenance rotation. In certain periods of 2008 we will have more than one spare aircraft due to availability of the maintenance allocation and utilizing remaining green time on the J-powered aircraft.

747-200 - The Charter group currently has one 747-200 passenger configured aircraft dedicated to charter flying (primarily military charters). A second passenger configured aircraft and a freighter will be added to the military charter program effective in October.

A330 – Expanded utilization of the A330 in trans-Atlantic markets continues with the introduction of new flights between Portland, OR and Amsterdam starting in March; new flights between Minneapolis/St. Paul and Paris Charles de Gaulle starting in April and new flights between Seattle and London Heathrow starting in June.

757s - In 2008, Northwest will expand use of the 757 in trans-Atlantic markets. We will be flying double daily from EWR-AMS starting March 29 and will add DTW-LGW starting May 1, in addition to the routes we currently serve.
Flying Plan for 2008
January 17, 2008

A319s - Northwest will continue to operate 57 Airbus A319s by year’s end (ten more than called for in the plan of reorganization). Northwest is in final discussions with the NBA and has an agreement in principle to re-establish a VIP charter program using seven specially configured aircraft. NBA-designated aircraft will be going through interior modifications starting in late summer for targeted completion by the start of the ‘08 NBA season.

DC-9s - The number of DC-9s will be reduced to 68 aircraft over the course of the year, with the largest reduction coming after the summer. We plan to operate a year-end fleet consisting of 34 - 50s, 12 - 40s and 22 - 30s (10 fewer than projected in the plan of reorganization).

Pilot Hiring
The impact of the Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act, which was recently signed into law, raises the retirement age from 60 years to 65 years for pilots serving on commercial flights operated by U.S. air carriers. The Crew Resources group is evaluating the effect on Northwest’s staffing projections. In the meantime, there is little impact expected on Northwest’s current hiring plans. Those plans call for between 200 to 250 new hire pilots by the end of 2008. As we see how many pilots over age 60 elect to stay we will adjust our new hire numbers accordingly. Beginning in January ‘08 we have started the flow up process with Mesaba and will see Mesaba pilots starting initial training in the upcoming months.

787
We are planning to take our first delivery in April/May of ’09, with the first revenue flying to begin in the summer of ’09. We are waiting for Boeing to accomplish two important milestones. First, to get power on the aircraft. Second, to accomplish the first test flight. The accomplishment of these two milestones will help us determine when we will commence training for instructors and line pilots.


Flying Plan for 2008
January 17, 2008

As you can see, our overall staffing levels are increasing in 2008, although our overall fleet count is currently planned to decrease in 2008 by 27 aircraft (24 DC9 and 3 747-200). This may appear counter-intuitive, but a number of factors contribute to this result:

• The monthly maxes used for planning staffing levels have been reduced when compared to 2007, which increases staffing requirements.

• Reserve staffing levels have increased to improve operational reliability in 2008.

• Our aircraft utilization increases in 2008, so although we have fewer total aircraft, we are flying the remaining aircraft slightly more, thus requiring more staffing per aircraft.

• We will launch a number of new international routes in 2008, which not only effect aircraft utilization, but also drive an increased amount of flying that requires augmented flight crews. You see this particularly on the A330 and B757 fleets.

• Additional focus has been placed on flying military charter missions in 2008. To maximize the number of missions flown, additional staffing is necessary. This is most noticeable on the 747-200 fleet.

As a result of these drivers, all fleets are projected to experience staffing increases in 2008, with the exception of the DC-9 fleet. The overall growth amongst the other fleets is projected to more than offset the reduction in required DC-9 staffing. As a result, Northwest’s goal is to allow DC-9 positions to reduce naturally through bid outs to other positions and retirements, although I cannot definitively rule out a small number of displacements from the CA position should the bid outs or retirements not reach forecasted levels.

Some of this information is subject to change as we move through 2008. I will continue to update you on significant fleet and staffing level changes, and I also encourage you to review the monthly Flying Bulletins published by Crew Resources for details on projected staffing level changes across all fleets.
Click to expand...
 
I love it. The egos are strarting get fired up here. There are going to be hurt feelings over where the headquarters is located, what the call signs will be, what pay scales you'll go with, and even what the uniforms look like. Oh, and you have to integrate two seniority lists. Good luck with all of that.

What are the odds of this whole thing going down? Seems like it has been a "done deal" to be announced next week since Christmas.

By the way, does Delta have any plans for paying carbon credits in Europe if those clowns start charging for that crap? I've heard that European countries were going to charge carriers a carbon tax. Al Gore would be proud.
 
My Analysis - NWA is not as large an airline as Delta and does not bring as much to the table - duh.

My focus is on what is going to be taken off the table. We already know the fleet plans announced in the article posted above. If Delta controls the combined entity, it is probably safe to assume that Delta's ideas on re-fleeting the company will take precedence. Delta has passed on the A330 and 787 prefering improvements to its 767 fleet. Like NWA, Delta can't get a next generation replacement for the 737-600 to 800 sized jet soon enough & Delta "likes" the large CRJ's (and particularly likes other airlines making the captial outlays for a nearly obsolete aircraft) Until a next generation 737 comes on the market it seems like both airlines enjoy outsourcing narrowbody domestic flying.

There will certainly be inducements for Delta to get on the Boeing bandwagon now and there have been rumors of Boeing exploring increased 737 production. However, remember that the 737 WILL be obsolete in the near future. Buying these would be an expensive competitive disadvantage going forward.

Internationally, a DAL & NWA merger works. But I've not completed the research to figure out if the 787 is a game changer for international traffic flows like the RJ was for narrowbody domestic flying. If the 787 does to the A330's and 767's what the RJ did to the narrowbody domestic jets of the 1970's, it might be a game changer - allowing point to point overflight of NWA's prized Asian operation.

We have to hope for the best. ALPA seems to be engaged proactively and is working on our behalf.
 
jetflier said:
"
DAL does have Boeing/MD 80/88, same as the DC9 Not quite DAL MD88 12yr Capt $142/hr, NWA DC9 12yr Capt $126/hr, Delta has no plans to get rid of our MD88's (at least not this year) NWA plans to get rid of almost half. and I'm sure they are not being flown to Paris, so we enjoy the same QOL on 'em. As far as pay goes, before CH11 we got paid better than DAL pay rates. You might want to go back and check those rates again. I might be wrong but we had just signed the highest paying contract in the industry on July 2001. That is where our paycuts started from. As of right now you don't even compete in the pay department.

"The one thing you and I can agree on is that you have the Pacific routes. If it wasn't for that I don't think the merger conversation would be taking place."

I totally agree with this statement, and I prefer we don't merge with anyone.
Click to expand...


I imagine this will end up like every other merger where everyone is pissed off. Seniority integration is going to be the big sticking point in this merger like every merger. I know that DOH is non starter here at Delta.
 
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As usual, pilots want to see whose d$#k is bigger.

How about this as a possibility. Stop trying to compete. Both airlines bring a TON to the table. They fit fairly well. I don't know that an extra inch or not should make a difference. Unless you want to use that in a seniority arbitration.
 
profit said:
As usual, pilots want to see whose d$#k is bigger.
Click to expand...
No, I don't think so. After bankruptcy, furloughs and going into record high oil prices, pilots want to make sure the flight plan is viable. If DAL/NWA does not work after the merger both pilot groups are euqally screwed.
 
What about career expectations at DAL vs NWA? Looks like 100 newhires in March and possibly 100 for April and May. Newhires can hold anything they want other than the 777 and 765 right off the bat. Better pay, work rules, and benefits. Upgrade opportunites and career earnings are much better at Delta. I'm thinking that the better career expectations at Delta should count for something in the merged list. I don't think this is going to be a fun year for any DAL or NWA employee. My only two requests as a DAL guy are that we get any future 69+ seat jets flown by mainline pilots and we adopt the NWA hat policy that the stupid looking things are optional. :)
 
How about all flying flown by mainline pilots?

I did not think DAL had new hires on the 765, or 777, yet. Was there some new class drop?
 
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~~~^~~~ said:
How about all flying flown by mainline pilots?

I did not think DAL had new hires on the 765, or 777, yet. Was there some new class drop?

I could not survive on NWA new hire pay. Just flat could not, would not, do it. As is, my cousin makes more managing a Long John Silvers.
Click to expand...

that will never work, unless it involves taking back all RJ flying, but not the pilots, according to Delta pilots like Puff. And I do think his opinion is representative of the Delta pilot group as a whole.

Of course, that makes the issue DOA.
 
John:

<<<<<<< - - - See that thing?

When Pan Am bought Ransome, everything, even the ATR was flown by Pan Am pilots. Our mutual "friend" Drew Bedson flew the ATR's and complained that folks from his class ended up with mid eighties seniority dates at Delta.

Sorry - I will avoid hijacking this thread into another one list debate - Sorry.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
How about all flying flown by mainline pilots?

I did not think DAL had new hires on the 765, or 777, yet. Was there some new class drop?
Click to expand...

You are right, there are not newhires on the 777 or 765. I said everything except those. I also think ALL flying should be flown by mainline pilots, but that may be hard to recapture. I think a starting point would be ALL future RJ flying is done by mainline guys. We may have the ability to recapture some of the CRJ 900 flying currently being done, but that is unlikely. It wouldn't be difficult to get any future RJ flying and I think that is what we need to protect our junior guys.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
John:

<<<<<<< - - - See that thing?

When Pan Am bought Ransome, everything, even the ATR was flown by Pan Am pilots. Our mutual "friend" Drew Bedson flew the ATR's and complained that folks from his class ended up with mid eighties seniority dates at Delta.

Sorry - I will avoid hijacking this thread into another one list debate - Sorry.
Click to expand...

I think most of us would be ok with a staple at mainline. But that isn't even acceptable to the Delta pilots. They would have to take "undesirables" with "no degree" and "10 DUIs" and then their squadron mates would have to stoop to the level of flying an RJ or a turboprop for a few years. That's what killed it in 1998.
 
I'd be curious to know what NWA folks think DAL has that would be considered a negative in a merger. A large problem with NWA is the DC-9 fleet.

If a mereger happens...this fleet will be replaced. It most likely will be replaced with a sub 100 seat jet and perhaps by pilots on neither seniority list at this time.

So.....how do you protect and plan for that? Large fences? Pre negotiated furlough order?

As for the 747's, I'd bet that they would be eventually replaced by the 777 for economic reasons. The 777 position can be argued as a better position on the fact of pay rates anyway. Thus, they are not viewed as a positve, nor a negative, but a wash at best.

Last but not least, what about the retirement issue. DAL voted their retirement away for better work rules and pay. NWA kept a frozen plan in exchange for worse rules and less pay. That's oil and water right there folks. Bringing NWA people up to parity without adddressing retirement for DAL people will not work.

That is why I beleive it will be very difficult for these two MEC's to ever come to an agreement that will be acceptable to management to make this merger work.

Ed
 
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jetflier said:
Not trying to be flame bait, but the question has recently been asked around NWA.

NWA

- Good financial numbers, better than DAL
- Freighter division
- 747-400
- A330
- 68 787
- Pacific division, Tokyo hub 747-400, 747,757,a320
- less domestic delays due to more newer and efficient hubs

can't think of more right now...
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Well, here goes.

1. NWA's financials are good, but Delta's have improved a lot as well. BK tends to clean up a lot.

2. Freighter division. Didn't your largest customer, DHL, just drop your contract? That can't be good. Sure, you might have find someone else, but you are also slowly parking those 742s. The cargo rights and slots are valuable, and hopefully won't go to Fedex or UPS. Maybe your 744s will be converted into cargo birds.

3. Again, the 744s will likely be replaced by 787s (or our 777LRs) thanks to high fuel. I see them going to the cargo side in ANC, if we still have one.

4. A330s. Is this a good point? How many do you have? They are pretty small in NRT, with your 757s being the smallest planes there. Low pay rates compared to our widebodies. Our second largest plane (764--21 of them) is paid a lot more.

5. 787s. Do you have any yet? Orders are great though. We have orders or options for a lot more 777LRs, and they will pay more and fly just as far.

6. Tokyo hub. Yes, that is an asset. But at NRT you are a small player to each point you serve, with maybe one flight a day (two to HNL, GUM, etc). Most Asian carriers that serve NRT have a few daily flights to each of their own major cities, while you have maybe one. But, for an American carrier, you do have a large presence. For a "hub", NRT is small with no pilot base. Regardless, it is an asset.

The rest of your fleet is out dated and fixin to be parked. Your 757s pay less than our 738s. The DC9s will be history when a replacement is found (maybe some MD90s on the market).

Your route structure is very hub and spoke oriented. Very little point to point, except some DC9 routes from Grand Rapids and Flint to places in FLA---FLL, TPA, MCO etc.

You have a good relationship with KLM in AMS. You have replaced some of their flights to the US---like EWR AMS on your A330s. You are adding a few new flights to AMS as well, like AMS to PDX this summer, and you added BDL to AMS last summer. Not bad.

Less domestic delays? How cold is it up there on the DC9? ATL is the best hub in the world, primarily due to our drought here. We haven't had any huge weather outbreaks in a year or more. Yes, when we get an ice storm (we did have two small ones in one week a couple weeks ago), we cancelled a bunch of flights. But, that was about it, nothing all summer and hardly anything this last fall or winter. Sure, JFK is a mess, but it is for everyone there. NYC ATC aint the best.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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DAL737FO said:
I imagine this will end up like every other merger where everyone is pissed off. Seniority integration is going to be the big sticking point in this merger like every merger. I know that DOH is non starter here at Delta.
Click to expand...

DOH is a non starter according to ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy is it not? Ask the USAir guys how that went.
 
Truckdriver said:
My only two requests as a DAL guy are that we get any future 69+ seat jets flown by mainline pilots and we adopt the NWA hat policy that the stupid looking things are optional. :)
Click to expand...

I'll add my two. A good-sized pay raise and a plan to avoid total career stagnation at DL bases from the influx of previous NW commuters.
 
EdTeachLives! said:
but not least, what about the retirement issue. DAL voted their retirement away for better work rules and pay. NWA kept a frozen plan in exchange for worse rules and less pay. That's oil and water right there folks. Bringing NWA people up to parity without adddressing retirement for DAL people will not work.

Ed
Click to expand...
Having the NWA guys leave sooner rather than later might work for everyone.

They kept their cake, let them go eat it.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Having the NWA guys leave sooner rather than later might work for everyone.

They kept their cake, let them go eat it.
Click to expand...

Yes, but they will get our better work rules if they merge with us. I think it would be good for our management to try to buy out the top NWA guys, sure. But, we will have to be brought up to their retirement "worth", and I think they are working on that right now. I agree though--500 or so top NWA guys leaving would be good for everyone, especially junior pilots. I don't know if that would happen though.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
5. 787s. Do you have any yet? Orders are great though. We have orders or options for a lot more 777LRs, and they will pay more and fly just as far.
Click to expand...
I don't think you are understanding the intended mission of the 787. It would however be very complementary to non-thin-market 777LR service in the system.
 

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