Who is bringing more to merger, NWA or DAL

[~~~^~~~]

How about all flying flown by mainline pilots?

I did not think DAL had new hires on the 765, or 777, yet. Was there some new class drop?

 

[John Pennekamp]

How about all flying flown by mainline pilots?

I did not think DAL had new hires on the 765, or 777, yet. Was there some new class drop?

I could not survive on NWA new hire pay. Just flat could not, would not, do it. As is, my cousin makes more managing a Long John Silvers.

that will never work, unless it involves taking back all RJ flying, but not the pilots, according to Delta pilots like Puff. And I do think his opinion is representative of the Delta pilot group as a whole.

Of course, that makes the issue DOA.

 

[~~~^~~~]

John:

<<<<<<< - - - See that thing?

When Pan Am bought Ransome, everything, even the ATR was flown by Pan Am pilots. Our mutual "friend" Drew Bedson flew the ATR's and complained that folks from his class ended up with mid eighties seniority dates at Delta.

Sorry - I will avoid hijacking this thread into another one list debate - Sorry.

 

[Truckdriver]

How about all flying flown by mainline pilots?

I did not think DAL had new hires on the 765, or 777, yet. Was there some new class drop?

You are right, there are not newhires on the 777 or 765. I said everything except those. I also think ALL flying should be flown by mainline pilots, but that may be hard to recapture. I think a starting point would be ALL future RJ flying is done by mainline guys. We may have the ability to recapture some of the CRJ 900 flying currently being done, but that is unlikely. It wouldn't be difficult to get any future RJ flying and I think that is what we need to protect our junior guys.

 

[John Pennekamp]

John:

<<<<<<< - - - See that thing?

When Pan Am bought Ransome, everything, even the ATR was flown by Pan Am pilots. Our mutual "friend" Drew Bedson flew the ATR's and complained that folks from his class ended up with mid eighties seniority dates at Delta.

Sorry - I will avoid hijacking this thread into another one list debate - Sorry.

I think most of us would be ok with a staple at mainline. But that isn't even acceptable to the Delta pilots. They would have to take "undesirables" with "no degree" and "10 DUIs" and then their squadron mates would have to stoop to the level of flying an RJ or a turboprop for a few years. That's what killed it in 1998.

 

[EdTeachLives!]

I'd be curious to know what NWA folks think DAL has that would be considered a negative in a merger. A large problem with NWA is the DC-9 fleet.

If a mereger happens...this fleet will be replaced. It most likely will be replaced with a sub 100 seat jet and perhaps by pilots on neither seniority list at this time.

So.....how do you protect and plan for that? Large fences? Pre negotiated furlough order?

As for the 747's, I'd bet that they would be eventually replaced by the 777 for economic reasons. The 777 position can be argued as a better position on the fact of pay rates anyway. Thus, they are not viewed as a positve, nor a negative, but a wash at best.

Last but not least, what about the retirement issue. DAL voted their retirement away for better work rules and pay. NWA kept a frozen plan in exchange for worse rules and less pay. That's oil and water right there folks. Bringing NWA people up to parity without adddressing retirement for DAL people will not work.

That is why I beleive it will be very difficult for these two MEC's to ever come to an agreement that will be acceptable to management to make this merger work.

Ed

 

[General Lee]

Not trying to be flame bait, but the question has recently been asked around NWA.

NWA

- Good financial numbers, better than DAL
- Freighter division
- 747-400
- A330
- 68 787
- Pacific division, Tokyo hub 747-400, 747,757,a320
- less domestic delays due to more newer and efficient hubs

can't think of more right now...

Hmmm. Well, here goes.

1. NWA's financials are good, but Delta's have improved a lot as well. BK tends to clean up a lot.

2. Freighter division. Didn't your largest customer, DHL, just drop your contract? That can't be good. Sure, you might have find someone else, but you are also slowly parking those 742s. The cargo rights and slots are valuable, and hopefully won't go to Fedex or UPS. Maybe your 744s will be converted into cargo birds.

3. Again, the 744s will likely be replaced by 787s (or our 777LRs) thanks to high fuel. I see them going to the cargo side in ANC, if we still have one.

4. A330s. Is this a good point? How many do you have? They are pretty small in NRT, with your 757s being the smallest planes there. Low pay rates compared to our widebodies. Our second largest plane (764--21 of them) is paid a lot more.

5. 787s. Do you have any yet? Orders are great though. We have orders or options for a lot more 777LRs, and they will pay more and fly just as far.

6. Tokyo hub. Yes, that is an asset. But at NRT you are a small player to each point you serve, with maybe one flight a day (two to HNL, GUM, etc). Most Asian carriers that serve NRT have a few daily flights to each of their own major cities, while you have maybe one. But, for an American carrier, you do have a large presence. For a "hub", NRT is small with no pilot base. Regardless, it is an asset.

The rest of your fleet is out dated and fixin to be parked. Your 757s pay less than our 738s. The DC9s will be history when a replacement is found (maybe some MD90s on the market).

Your route structure is very hub and spoke oriented. Very little point to point, except some DC9 routes from Grand Rapids and Flint to places in FLA---FLL, TPA, MCO etc.

You have a good relationship with KLM in AMS. You have replaced some of their flights to the US---like EWR AMS on your A330s. You are adding a few new flights to AMS as well, like AMS to PDX this summer, and you added BDL to AMS last summer. Not bad.

Less domestic delays? How cold is it up there on the DC9? ATL is the best hub in the world, primarily due to our drought here. We haven't had any huge weather outbreaks in a year or more. Yes, when we get an ice storm (we did have two small ones in one week a couple weeks ago), we cancelled a bunch of flights. But, that was about it, nothing all summer and hardly anything this last fall or winter. Sure, JFK is a mess, but it is for everyone there. NYC ATC aint the best.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[800Dog]

I imagine this will end up like every other merger where everyone is pissed off. Seniority integration is going to be the big sticking point in this merger like every merger. I know that DOH is non starter here at Delta.

DOH is a non starter according to ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy is it not? Ask the USAir guys how that went.

 

[Noserider76]

My only two requests as a DAL guy are that we get any future 69+ seat jets flown by mainline pilots and we adopt the NWA hat policy that the stupid looking things are optional.

I'll add my two. A good-sized pay raise and a plan to avoid total career stagnation at DL bases from the influx of previous NW commuters.

 

[~~~^~~~]

but not least, what about the retirement issue. DAL voted their retirement away for better work rules and pay. NWA kept a frozen plan in exchange for worse rules and less pay. That's oil and water right there folks. Bringing NWA people up to parity without adddressing retirement for DAL people will not work.

Ed

Having the NWA guys leave sooner rather than later might work for everyone.

They kept their cake, let them go eat it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'll add my two. A good-sized pay raise and a plan to avoid total career stagnation at DL bases from the influx of previous NW commuters.

27 year Blue Book, no make that 32.

 

[General Lee]

Having the NWA guys leave sooner rather than later might work for everyone.

They kept their cake, let them go eat it.

Yes, but they will get our better work rules if they merge with us. I think it would be good for our management to try to buy out the top NWA guys, sure. But, we will have to be brought up to their retirement "worth", and I think they are working on that right now. I agree though--500 or so top NWA guys leaving would be good for everyone, especially junior pilots. I don't know if that would happen though.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

The rest of your fleet is out dated and fixin to be parked.

Really? We are "fixin" to park 130 A320/319's and 71 757's? I had no idea. I gotta start reading those memo's

 

[DTW320]

5. 787s. Do you have any yet? Orders are great though. We have orders or options for a lot more 777LRs, and they will pay more and fly just as far.

I don't think you are understanding the intended mission of the 787. It would however be very complementary to non-thin-market 777LR service in the system.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Just came in. Video of the DAL MEC's meeting with the NWA MEC. Shocking, but the NWA MEC has a catchy tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg

All Your Base Are Belong to Us!