While you are all joking about this small by comparison story...

[Poahi]

It's interesting to me how no one came out in public in their defense. Why wouldn't ALPA defend them publicly? Even if ALPA thought they were not truthful, they could come out and support their clean record.

 

[colonel sanders]

Ok...I can lurk no longer. Are you guys kidding me? These guys were out of radio contact with ATC and their dispatchers for one and a half hours. They not only flew 150 miles beyond their IFR clearance, but also beyond the destination that the aircraft was dispatched to. They were in danger of being intercepted and shot down. And you guys call this a simple mistake? People bust their commercial rides every day simply because they cant find one of their checkpoints during the cross country portion. Situational awareness is fundamental. And these guys claim they lost all situational awareness, because they were on their laptops. Yeah right. If the frequency is silent for over 10 minutes, somebody is keying on checking to make sure center is still there. They have to be covering up the fact that they fell asleep. That's the only thing that makes any sense as to how this happened. All this experience these guys had just makes it even worse that they allowed this to happen. I strongly agree that if it was a regional crew that did this, everyone in this forum would crucify them. But since it involved a NW crew that was so experienced, they are perceived as humans that made a mistake. Taking off squawking the wrong txpdr code, calling chicago center "indy center" when checking in, and overspeeding the slats are all mistakes. Not sure what these guys were doing up there, but any ATP at that experience level should not be making mistakes like that anymore.

 

[Poahi]

I did find this statement from the DAL MEC. Sounds like they think this is ASAP'able.



Release #09.DAL3
October 26, 2009

Delta Pilots’ Union Issues Statement on Northwest Flight 188 Investigation

Atlanta—The Delta Master Executive Council, the Delta branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), the union that represents the over 12,000 pilots of Delta Air Lines*, today issued a statement concerning the NTSB investigation into Northwest Flight 188.

“As professional airline pilots, our primary concern is and always will be the safety and well-being of our passengers,” said Captain Lee Moak, Delta MEC Chairman. “In any aircraft incident, there is always more to the story than first appears in the press. We do not condone the abandonment of due process that will result from a rush to judgment; instead we implore all interested parties to move with deliberate and unemotional professionalism as the events surrounding this incident are investigated.”

On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, Air Traffic Control (ATC) lost radio contact with Northwest Flight 188, and Flight 188 subsequently overflew its destination before radio contact was reestablished. The aircraft remained visible to ATC radar at all times. Once radio contact was reestablished, the aircraft returned for a safe landing at its destination. At no time were the passengers, crew or aircraft in danger.

Over the past several years, labor, management, the industry and government agencies have partnered, expending significant amounts of time, money and effort, to develop programs such as Aviation Safety Action Programs (ASAP) and Flight Operational Quality Assurance (FOQA) programs designed to improve the safety of our nation’s aviation system. The core tenet of these programs is the ability of pilots to self disclose without fear of retribution in order to help make the U.S. aviation system the safest in the world.

“To date, all crew statements related to this case have been voluntary. We are disappointed that these voluntary statements are being used without regard for the breach of trust and confidence their use will cause,” Captain Moak remarked. “Programs like ASAP and FOQA could be dealt a debilitating blow as pilots question the integrity of these voluntary programs. A rush to judgment by the NTSB will have a direct impact on the future of voluntary safety programs, which are at the very core of the safety structure of the U.S. aviation industry. The continued viability of these programs themselves will be placed at risk. That will, in turn, cause irreparable harm to the safety of our nation’s aviation system.”

“The NTSB is an independent federal agency charged with determining the probable cause of transportation accidents and promoting transportation safety. They are not charged with prematurely releasing self-disclosed information to be sensationalized in the press,” Captain Moak insisted.

“We will work closely with Delta and federal officials to determine any root causes for last weeks sequence of events,” Captain Moak continued, “but in the meantime I strongly encourage all parties not to reach a hasty conclusion. There is a proper venue for this investigation, but we stand firmly behind the crew’s right to due process.”

Founded in 1931, ALPA represents 54,000 pilots at 36 airlines in the U.S. and Canada. ALPA represents over 12,000 Delta pilots. Visit the ALPA website at www.alpa.org, the Delta MEC website at www.deltapilots.org.

SOURCE: Air Line Pilots Association
CONTACT: DAL ALPA, Kelly Regus, 404-763-4925 office or [email protected]

 

[Flying the Line]

ASAP doesn't matter, this incident is not single source.

 

[GogglesPisano]

ASAP doesn't matter, this incident is not single source.

You still have certain protections under ASAP whether the incident is sole-source or not. What is exempt from ASAP is intentional disregard for safety/procedures.

 

[Caveman]

Ok...I can lurk no longer. Are you guys kidding me? These guys were out of radio contact with ATC and their dispatchers for one and a half hours. They not only flew 150 miles beyond their IFR clearance, but also beyond the destination that the aircraft was dispatched to. They were in danger of being intercepted and shot down. And you guys call this a simple mistake? People bust their commercial rides every day simply because they cant find one of their checkpoints during the cross country portion. Situational awareness is fundamental. And these guys claim they lost all situational awareness, because they were on their laptops. Yeah right. If the frequency is silent for over 10 minutes, somebody is keying on checking to make sure center is still there. They have to be covering up the fact that they fell asleep. That's the only thing that makes any sense as to how this happened. All this experience these guys had just makes it even worse that they allowed this to happen. I strongly agree that if it was a regional crew that did this, everyone in this forum would crucify them. But since it involved a NW crew that was so experienced, they are perceived as humans that made a mistake. Taking off squawking the wrong txpdr code, calling chicago center "indy center" when checking in, and overspeeding the slats are all mistakes. Not sure what these guys were doing up there, but any ATP at that experience level should not be making mistakes like that anymore.

Does it rise to the level of a career ending mistake? I say no.

 

[HomerJ]

Does it rise to the level of a career ending mistake? I say no.

What if the f/a hadn't called them and finally woke them up? Fuel exhaustion somewhere over northern Michigan. Would that qualify as a career ending mistake? I'll bet they're glad that buzzer is so loud.

 

[Caveman]

What if the f/a hadn't called them and finally woke them up? Fuel exhaustion somewhere over northern Michigan. Would that qualify as a career ending mistake? I'll bet they're glad that buzzer is so loud.

Probably, but that didn't happen. They landed safely. We can speculate til the cows come home about what ifs. Let's talk about what did happen. They screwed up. The mistake was trapped (finally) and the flight ended safely. There should be consequences, but permanently losing their certificates is excessive IMO.

 

[crj567]

I usually disagree with everything you say , but that's a pretty nice statement above!

Yeah-These are just human and we all make mistakes-they certainly deserve a second chance-especially since they are classy enough to not fly RJs.

 

[crj567]

You still have certain protections under ASAP whether the incident is sole-source or not. What is exempt from ASAP is intentional disregard for safety/procedures.

You are correct, sir. I think they will get their licenses back-eventually. The FAA is just trying to make it appear that they dropped the hammer on these guys.

 

[rigger]

Probably, but that didn't happen. They landed safely. We can speculate til the cows come home about what ifs. Let's talk about what did happen. They screwed up. The mistake was trapped (finally) and the flight ended safely. There should be consequences, but permanently losing their certificates is excessive IMO.

They wont loose all the certs, will end up forfeiting the ATP and loosing ther job, and their chosen career. That I think is very very appropriate for such a lack of professional demeanor by both falling asleep (on computers my bad) For lack of any moral character for lying about anything and for the lack of personal acceptance of the F up they made....... Good job feds!

 

[pipe]

I did find this statement from the DAL MEC. Sounds like they think this is ASAP'able.



Release #09.DAL3
October 26, 2009

Delta Pilots’ Union Issues Statement on Northwest Flight 188 Investigation

Atlanta—The Delta Master Executive Council, the Delta branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), the union that represents the over 12,000 pilots of Delta Air Lines*, today issued a statement concerning the NTSB investigation into Northwest Flight 188.

“As professional airline pilots, our primary concern is and always will be the safety and well-being of our passengers,” said Captain Lee Moak, Delta MEC Chairman. “In any aircraft incident, there is always more to the story than first appears in the press. We do not condone the abandonment of due process that will result from a rush to judgment; instead we implore all interested parties to move with deliberate and unemotional professionalism as the events surrounding this incident are investigated.”

On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, Air Traffic Control (ATC) lost radio contact with Northwest Flight 188, and Flight 188 subsequently overflew its destination before radio contact was reestablished. The aircraft remained visible to ATC radar at all times. Once radio contact was reestablished, the aircraft returned for a safe landing at its destination. At no time were the passengers, crew or aircraft in danger.

Over the past several years, labor, management, the industry and government agencies have partnered, expending significant amounts of time, money and effort, to develop programs such as Aviation Safety Action Programs (ASAP) and Flight Operational Quality Assurance (FOQA) programs designed to improve the safety of our nation’s aviation system. The core tenet of these programs is the ability of pilots to self disclose without fear of retribution in order to help make the U.S. aviation system the safest in the world.

“To date, all crew statements related to this case have been voluntary. We are disappointed that these voluntary statements are being used without regard for the breach of trust and confidence their use will cause,” Captain Moak remarked. “Programs like ASAP and FOQA could be dealt a debilitating blow as pilots question the integrity of these voluntary programs. A rush to judgment by the NTSB will have a direct impact on the future of voluntary safety programs, which are at the very core of the safety structure of the U.S. aviation industry. The continued viability of these programs themselves will be placed at risk. That will, in turn, cause irreparable harm to the safety of our nation’s aviation system.”

“The NTSB is an independent federal agency charged with determining the probable cause of transportation accidents and promoting transportation safety. They are not charged with prematurely releasing self-disclosed information to be sensationalized in the press,” Captain Moak insisted.

“We will work closely with Delta and federal officials to determine any root causes for last weeks sequence of events,” Captain Moak continued, “but in the meantime I strongly encourage all parties not to reach a hasty conclusion. There is a proper venue for this investigation, but we stand firmly behind the crew’s right to due process.”

Founded in 1931, ALPA represents 54,000 pilots at 36 airlines in the U.S. and Canada. ALPA represents over 12,000 Delta pilots. Visit the ALPA website at www.alpa.org, the Delta MEC website at www.deltapilots.org.

SOURCE: Air Line Pilots Association
CONTACT: DAL ALPA, Kelly Regus, 404-763-4925 office or [email protected]

If ASAP does get these guys off, that will be the next big media story.

"AIRLINE SAFETY PROGRAM ALLOWS PILOTS TO VIOLATE RULES AND ENDANGER LIVES WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE"

I'd bet that if ASAP saves these guys, we will eventually lose ASAP due to media and public pressure in Congress. Never mind that the result will be a reduction in safety.

PIPE

 

[scoreboardII]

willful misconduct, lying, criminal acts are not covered by ASAP.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

You seem to have all the facts before they have been released. Do you work for the faa or ntsb? If not, where?

willful misconduct, lying, criminal acts are not covered by ASAP.

 

[DCAA320]

They Fu(kin4 lied. Their explanation is insulting.

 

[Fubijaakr]

willful misconduct, lying, criminal acts are not covered by ASAP.

The proper term is "intentional non-compliance."

 

[IBNAV8R]

This was no small error and the public is rightfully outraged - as are most pilots.

I now get to be the de-facto expert on cockpit distractions to anyone who knows my occupation.

No - I don't use my laptop during flight.
Yes - I have been distracted.
No - I have never been THAT distracted.
Yes - but I will never admit to coordinating a catnap after a reduced rest and getting up at 0130 home-time.
Yes - I have lost radio contact - for a few minutes.
Yes - We CAN and do get "text" messages from the company.
Yes - There is an "alarm" when we get them.
No - We can call on an emergency frequency anywhere in the country to reestablish communication.
No - I don't believe they were engaged in heated conversation or BOTH distracted by their laptops.
Yes - I think the FAA was correct in grounding these two.
I don't know if they should ever fly again. I don't know all the facts.
No - all of the differing "reported facts" don't pass the smell test with me.
Yes - the flight attendants ARE calling to check on us much more often now.
Yes - I'm outraged. I just wonder what kind of BS is going to be heaped on us now because of these two friggin' boneheads. I'm sure congress and/or the FAA will have to do SOMETHING.
I don't know - Maybe LCDR Rabb will come do a test flight and find they were both using a bad batch of oxygen.

 

[SEVEN]

Hopefully their revocation won't be permanent. They did screw up and deserve to be fined, but a permanent revocation would be too extreme in my opinion. Hopefully we wont end up with cameras in the cockpit either.

Their revocation will not be permanent. IF it stands, they can reapply in 12 months. Although they will have to start from the begining. It does suck, but at least they will have the opportunity to fly again. Let's not forget that this could have been a tragedy if the fuel load would have been a little less. I do agree however, these guys are paying emotionally for their screw-up. As an aviator, flying isn't just a job, it's in your blood. And to have a situation like this occur that will forever taint your integrity as an airman is very depressing. It will take a lot of time for them to get over this. No pilot ever wants to do anything intentionally to jepordize the safety of their crew and passengers. The guilt the Captain is going through must be tremendous. I do feel for them. Although a screw up like this must be addressed harshly, especially if they did lie and are not owning up to the responsibilty of their true actions. Time will tell.

 

[ABITRATOR]

I can't believe these words are coming from a fellow pilots mouth. Just remember the world is round and not square. There are those who've done it, those who are currently doing it and those who will. You're human, therefore you fit into either category.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

While you are all joking about this small by comparison story......you fail to realize that these two pilots are HUMAN BEINGS with a VERY LONG record of experience that was untarnished until now. Whether or not you feel you are infallible (and never did anything but stare at controls on your every flight)...have some $%^&&()g compassion if only for the fact that these guys just lost the only (non transferrable) career they have ever known, and none of your ignorant anonymous message board bashing can compare to what they are probably internalizing on their own right now.
Let's hope your ALPA people are insisting on in depth counseling for these guys. There has been enough sorrow in this economy when people think they have lost everything...nevermind seeing the whole world (AND THEIR PERFECT FELLOW PILOTS) against them.

These guys' lives aren't jokes... They didn't kill anyone (not even close)...don't be part of the lynch mob that could "kill" them.
Think about it.
-----------------------------------------
It is very upsetting....it seems like every two minutes during this economy we have been hearing about stressed out people committing suicide.

These are mostly people that don't have the stalkerish media pounding down their doors in addition to the venom from an unbelievably large group of collegues that can't lift a finger to HELP further the profession...but have no problem adding to its anonymous destruction... (playing right into the hands of those that benefit from the further degredation of the profession).

The trolls on here do MUCH WORSE for the degredation of this profession in a 10 second post than these two could ever do in the one hour of their tens of thousands of flight hours in their careers.

No one came close to dying...but some won't be happy until someone does, apparently.

The anger in this society has become pretty savage. Let's go back to pretending we are human again and not so p*ssed off at the world...it's all as miserable as YOU EACH make it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzNrO54xsY
Everything is Amazing, Nobody is Happy (a/k/a The secret to happiness is the be thankful)

.....