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While you are all joking about this small by comparison story...

Voice Of Reason

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...you fail to realize that these two pilots are HUMAN BEINGS with a VERY LONG record of experience that was untarnished until now. Whether or not you feel you are infallible (and never did anything but stare at controls on your every flight)...have some $%^&&()g compassion if only for the fact that these guys just lost the only (non transferrable) career they have ever known, and none of your ignorant anonymous message board bashing can compare to what they are probably internalizing on their own right now.
Let's hope your ALPA people are insisting on in depth counseling for these guys. There has been enough sorrow in this economy when people think they have lost everything...nevermind seeing the whole world (AND THEIR PERFECT FELLOW PILOTS) against them.
These guys' lives aren't jokes... They didn't kill anyone (not even close)...don't be part of the lynch mob that could "kill" them.
Think about it.
 

Caveman

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I just posted a similar thought on the other thread. I agree with you. They deserve some consequences, but we don't have to completely destroy them.
 

CaptSeth

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?
I have questions about fatigue judging by the layover duration - 17-19 hours, it would appear to me that their circadian rhythm was possibly a bit off. I'm assuming they did the early departure westbound the day before, and on the incident day may have been awake for quite a while. The laptop story was a huge error in judgement if it was just a cover up attempt, if they had just claimed fatigue they may actually have had a real case.
 

Voice Of Reason

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I just posted a similar thought on the other thread. I agree with you. They deserve some consequences, but we don't have to completely destroy them.

It is very upsetting....it seems like every two minutes during this economy we have been hearing about stressed out people committing suicide.

These are mostly people that don't have the stalkerish media pounding down their doors in addition to the venom from an unbelievably large group of collegues that can't lift a finger to HELP further the profession...but have no problem adding to its anonymous destruction... (playing right into the hands of those that benefit from the further degredation of the profession).

The trolls on here do MUCH WORSE for the degredation of this profession in a 10 second post than these two could ever do in the one hour of their tens of thousands of flight hours in their careers.

No one came close to dying...but some won't be happy until someone does, apparently.

The anger in this society has become pretty savage. Let's go back to pretending we are human again and not so p*ssed off at the world...it's all as miserable as YOU EACH make it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzNrO54xsY
Everything is Amazing, Nobody is Happy (a/k/a The secret to happiness is the be thankful)
 
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Scope out RJ's

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...you fail to realize that these two pilots are HUMAN BEINGS with a VERY LONG record of experience that was untarnished until now. Whether or not you feel you are infallible (and never did anything but stare at controls on your every flight)...have some $%^&&()g compassion if only for the fact that these guys just lost the only (non transferrable) career they have ever known, and none of your ignorant anonymous message board bashing can compare to what they are probably internalizing on their own right now.
Let's hope your ALPA people are insisting on in depth counseling for these guys. There has been enough sorrow in this economy when people think they have lost everything...nevermind seeing the whole world (AND THEIR PERFECT FELLOW PILOTS) against them.
These guys' lives aren't jokes... They didn't kill anyone (not even close)...don't be part of the lynch mob that could "kill" them.
Think about it.

I usually disagree with everything you say , but that's a pretty nice statement above!
 

RedDogC130

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enough
yet the regional guys that had the RW Incursion the other day in LAX will be fine. The logic in this country pisses me off.
 

WayBack

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yet the regional guys that had the RW Incursion the other day in LAX will be fine. The logic in this country pisses me off.
When it's regional pilots being fried, it's ok. They're idiots to begin with.
But when it's Mainline guys, they're human beings with thousands of hours of experience.
Get off your high horse. These guys screwed up and deserve the lashing they get from their colleagues. They gave our profession another black eye.....then lied about it.
 

Voice Of Reason

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BTW--

Do pilots now have to worry about who associated with these things (maintenance who sees the logs, or other) is going to sell their NAMES to the tabloid media????? Perhaps we need to focus on other types of "security" measures for those in this profession.

(FYI--You can start with helping yourself by taking your home addresses off the FAA public search if you haven't already, as well).

Especially after this event, it should be clear that no one talks to ANYONE without an attorney present. Does ALPA have a card that you can carry to guide you in such matters?

...For example, something to the effect of:

"In light of previous federal investigations that were played out in the media....to prevent my words to you from being twisted in the public forum, and the fact that the results of this conversation may impact my career, I will need to have my attorney present while I fully cooperate with your investigation"

Put your applicable union rep, attorney (whether union or non), and/or other # in your speed dial and get them there asap.



Majors, regional, fracs, or corp...does not matter. Stop the bitterness here... these are real and from many accounts kind people, not nameless/ faceless evil beings you conjured up in your heads that got the jobs you wanted
 
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LandGreen

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where?
Once the media hype and all the politicians are done benefitting from this unfortunate event, I think Delta could show integrity, compassion and respect by hiring them for a non-flying job. From what I hear, their work records, FAA records, driving records are spotless. More compassion and the benefit of doubt is given to pedophiles than these two gentlemen. Revoking their license and destroying their ability to generate an income in the aviation community only serves the interests of public officials looking to capitalize on the media hysteria.

God forbid jetBlue lose contact with NY Center while both pilots are checking their COMPANY ISSUED LAPTOPS for the recent revision to their CAT III equipment list before conducting a low min approach.
 

Donald

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Hopefully their revocation won't be permanent. They did screw up and deserve to be fined, but a permanent revocation would be too extreme in my opinion. Hopefully we wont end up with cameras in the cockpit either.
 

Voice Of Reason

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Hopefully we wont end up with cameras in the cockpit either.

The feds have shown by PRECEDENT that they feel that everything done in the CABIN to take planes down has not warranted such measures.

Joe public needs virtual babysitting, not the professional pilot. You would think airline mgt would want to have passengers on video much more than pilots. Plenty of litigious idiots whose stories could be shot down rather quickly as well...
 
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Voice Of Reason

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Once the media hype and all the politicians are done benefitting from this unfortunate event, I think Delta could show integrity, compassion and respect by hiring them for a non-flying job. From what I hear, their work records, FAA records, driving records are spotless. More compassion and the benefit of doubt is given to pedophiles than these two gentlemen. Revoking their license and destroying their ability to generate an income in the aviation community only serves the interests of public officials looking to capitalize on the media hysteria.

God forbid jetBlue lose contact with NY Center while both pilots are checking their COMPANY ISSUED LAPTOPS for the recent revision to their CAT III equipment list before conducting a low min approach.

Precisely.
 

scoreboardII

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Revoking their license and destroying their ability to generate an income
What? McDonalds isn't hiring?

Voice, your voice has no reason.
Bundy was a great person and human being right up until he started wacking folks, thirty plus or so.
Action-reaction.
Cause-effect.
Disregard your pimary duty per FAR: fly the jet.
Disregard CRM principles, keep each other in the boundries of acceptable performance.
Disregard your location, Your Comm,Your Fuel state.
The sole reason you "make it" is because the $20hr FA in back asks you when we will be landing...

You sir/mam disregard common sense and accountability.

These two former pilots will do fine, any fast food chain will hire them, they obviously have the skill to use computers, they have loads of money in the bank and as seen on TV a fine house to selll to downsize to the new reality of Burger flipper.

No, they deserve no respect, no favor, they deserve the door and jail time if they lied about what they did.
Hopefully we wont end up with cameras in the cockpit either.
That is my hope as well, the only way to ensure this is to cut out the cancer that caused the problem, not make the rest of us wear diapers.
 
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JetFumes

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What? McDonalds isn't hiring?

Voice, your voice has no reason.
Bundy was a great person and human being right up until he started wacking folks, thirty plus or so.
Action-reaction.
Cause-effect.
Disregard your pimary duty per FAR: fly the jet.
Disregard CRM principles, keep each other in the boundries of acceptable performance.
Disregard your location, Your Comm,Your Fuel state.
The sole reason you "make it" is because the $20hr FA in back asks you when we will be landing...

You sir/mam disregard common sense and accountability.

These two former pilots will do fine, any fast food chain will hire them, they obviously have the skill to use computers, they have loads of money in the bank and as seen on TV a fine house to selll to downsize to the new reality of Burger flipper.

No, they deserve no respect, no favor, they deserve the door and jail time if they lied about what they did.
That is my hope as well, the only way to ensure this is to cut out the cancer that caused the problem, not make the rest of us wear diapers.

With your logic and reasoning, anyone who makes a mistake at any time regardless of past performance, deserves no due consideration. If everyone operated this way, there would be no doctors, engineers, pilots, or any other type of job that requires near perfection, for fear of losing the job due to a mistake. Why bother? These gentlemen screwed up big time, and deserve to be reprimanded severely. But in light of past actions,ie, great records, they deserve the right to earn themselves back into the profession which provides for their FAMILIES and themselves. Its amazing to me how many people will throw others under the bus and then ask for forgiveness when it's their ass on the line.
 

Voice Of Reason

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In the interest of "Fair & Balanced"....

Donor
Contribution
Address

James Kavanagh
Donation of $4,600 to Presidential elections 2008


James Kavanagh Information Requested
Self employed



Updated
Q2/2008
Barack Obama
$4,600
300 ARBOR GREEN LN
Alpharetta

Kavanagh, JamesSelf employed/Consultant

Airline pilots struggle to stay focused

By Jim Kavanagh, CNN


STORY HIGHLIGHTS


(CNN) -- No one was hurt in the incident last week, but the Federal Aviation Administration called Capt. ******* * ******and first officer **** **** **** "

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/28/pilots.cockpit/index.html?eref=rss_latest

-----------------------------------------------------

Feel free to add any other stone throwing tabloid "journalists" of this subject who obviously want their public info seen by the masses? Gee, and I thought CNN wasn't "in the bag"?:rolleyes:
 

Voice Of Reason

Reading Is Fundamental !
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...you fail to realize that these two pilots are HUMAN BEINGS with a VERY LONG record of experience that was untarnished until now. Whether or not you feel you are infallible (and never did anything but stare at controls on your every flight)...have some $%^&&()g compassion if only for the fact that these guys just lost the only (non transferrable) career they have ever known, and none of your ignorant anonymous message board bashing can compare to what they are probably internalizing on their own right now.
Let's hope your ALPA people are insisting on in depth counseling for these guys. There has been enough sorrow in this economy when people think they have lost everything...nevermind seeing the whole world (AND THEIR PERFECT FELLOW PILOTS) against them.
These guys' lives aren't jokes... They didn't kill anyone (not even close)...don't be part of the lynch mob that could "kill" them.
Think about it.


It is very upsetting....it seems like every two minutes during this economy we have been hearing about stressed out people committing suicide.

These are mostly people that don't have the stalkerish media pounding down their doors in addition to the venom from an unbelievably large group of collegues that can't lift a finger to HELP further the profession...but have no problem adding to its anonymous destruction... (playing right into the hands of those that benefit from the further degredation of the profession).

The trolls on here do MUCH WORSE for the degredation of this profession in a 10 second post than these two could ever do in the one hour of their tens of thousands of flight hours in their careers.

No one came close to dying...but some won't be happy until someone does, apparently.

The anger in this society has become pretty savage. Let's go back to pretending we are human again and not so p*ssed off at the world...it's all as miserable as YOU EACH make it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzNrO54xsY
Everything is Amazing, Nobody is Happy (a/k/a The secret to happiness is the be thankful) Louis CK on Conan...some good to say abt air travel bashing as well

bump for those seemingly now just rushing to their computers to misdirect their anger...
 

Voice Of Reason

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all on Google...public info...just pointing it out like they feel is necessary...

Feel free to add any other stone throwing tabloid "journalists" of this subject who obviously want their public info seen by the masses? Gee, and I thought CNN wasn't "in the bag"?:rolleyes:

OKAY, OKAY...I'll go again:

another article with pilot's full names and residence locations, with added photo for compromising even more of their security while pushing in his door:

"Northwest pilots prompt look at distracted flying" (on Yahoo! news)



AP – FILE -- On Oct. 23, 2009 file image rendered from video and made available by KGW-TV in Portland, Ore., …



By JOAN LOWY and KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Write
AP Airlines Writer Joshua Freed in Minneapolis contributed to this report.

Joan Lowy

Transportation reporter at The Associated Press
Washington D.C. Metro Area



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    The Associated Press

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    Covering transportation issues -- planes, trains, automobiles,etc. -- for AP national wire since July 2008.
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    <LI class="experience vevent vcard">Washington correspondent

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    September 1981 — April 1985 (3 years 8 months)
    Covered Denver suburb of Aurora and worked as general assignment reporter.
  • Reporter

    The Washington Star

    (Newspapers industry)
    December 1978 — August 1981 (2 years 9 months)
    Started as editorial assistant, promoted to reporter-trainee and then to reporter covering courts in Montgomery County, Md.
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    BA , Journalism, minor Spanish , 1974 — 1978

    Activities and Societies: Worked for WRGW, campus radio station
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Phonebook results for JOAN LOWY vienna, va

#mr{width:40%}#res #mr{width:auto}Joan Lowy (703) 938-2603 2613 E Meredith Dr, Vienna, VA 22181 Map
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  1. Pat Schroeder: a woman of the House - Google Books Result

    by Joan A. Lowy - 2003 - Biography & Autobiography - 216 pages
    JOAN A. LOWY is A NATIONAL REPORTER FOR SCRIPPS HOWARD NEWS SERVICE. SHE LIVES IN VIENNA, VIRGINIA. ...
    books.google.com/books?isbn=0826330983...
 

Voice Of Reason

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Especially after this event, it should be clear that no one talks to ANYONE without an attorney present. Does ALPA have a card that you can carry to guide you in such matters?

...For example, something to the effect of:

"In light of previous federal investigations that were played out in the media....to prevent my words to you from being twisted in the public forum, and the fact that the results of this conversation may impact my career, I will need to have my attorney present while I fully cooperate with your investigation"

Put your applicable union rep, attorney (whether union or non), and/or other # in your speed dial and get them there asap.

....so there is or is NOT any guidance from ALPA to this effect?
 

scoreboardII

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With your logic and reasoning, anyone who makes a mistake at any time regardless of past performance, deserves no due consideration. If everyone operated this way, there would be no doctors, engineers, pilots, or any other type of job that requires near perfection, for fear of losing the job due to a mistake. Why bother? These gentlemen screwed up big time, and deserve to be reprimanded severely. But in light of past actions,ie, great records, they deserve the right to earn themselves back into the profession which provides for their FAMILIES and themselves. Its amazing to me how many people will throw others under the bus and then ask for forgiveness when it's their ass on the line.
Please learn the difference between mistakes and crimes.
 

onewithwings

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776
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...you fail to realize that these two pilots are HUMAN BEINGS with a VERY LONG record of experience that was untarnished until now. Whether or not you feel you are infallible (and never did anything but stare at controls on your every flight)...have some $%^&&()g compassion if only for the fact that these guys just lost the only (non transferrable) career they have ever known, and none of your ignorant anonymous message board bashing can compare to what they are probably internalizing on their own right now.

Exactly! We ALL make mistakes. Wait until the FAA and NTSB have made their conclussions before you berate these people and keep your trash talk to yourself!

I'm tired of having to read ALL the unprofessional comments posted on this subject! Grow up, man up...this isn't Kindergarten. :angryfire
 
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