While you are all joking about this small by comparison story...

[Voice Of Reason]

...you fail to realize that these two pilots are HUMAN BEINGS with a VERY LONG record of experience that was untarnished until now. Whether or not you feel you are infallible (and never did anything but stare at controls on your every flight)...have some $%^&&()g compassion if only for the fact that these guys just lost the only (non transferrable) career they have ever known, and none of your ignorant anonymous message board bashing can compare to what they are probably internalizing on their own right now.
Let's hope your ALPA people are insisting on in depth counseling for these guys. There has been enough sorrow in this economy when people think they have lost everything...nevermind seeing the whole world (AND THEIR PERFECT FELLOW PILOTS) against them.
These guys' lives aren't jokes... They didn't kill anyone (not even close)...don't be part of the lynch mob that could "kill" them.
Think about it.

It is very upsetting....it seems like every two minutes during this economy we have been hearing about stressed out people committing suicide.

These are mostly people that don't have the stalkerish media pounding down their doors in addition to the venom from an unbelievably large group of collegues that can't lift a finger to HELP further the profession...but have no problem adding to its anonymous destruction... (playing right into the hands of those that benefit from the further degredation of the profession).

The trolls on here do MUCH WORSE for the degredation of this profession in a 10 second post than these two could ever do in the one hour of their tens of thousands of flight hours in their careers.

No one came close to dying...but some won't be happy until someone does, apparently.

The anger in this society has become pretty savage. Let's go back to pretending we are human again and not so p*ssed off at the world...it's all as miserable as YOU EACH make it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzNrO54xsY
Everything is Amazing, Nobody is Happy (a/k/a The secret to happiness is the be thankful) Louis CK on Conan...some good to say abt air travel bashing as well

bump for those seemingly now just rushing to their computers to misdirect their anger...

 

[Voice Of Reason]

all on Google...public info...just pointing it out like they feel is necessary...

Feel free to add any other stone throwing tabloid "journalists" of this subject who obviously want their public info seen by the masses? Gee, and I thought CNN wasn't "in the bag"?

OKAY, OKAY...I'll go again:

another article with pilot's full names and residence locations, with added photo for compromising even more of their security while pushing in his door:

"Northwest pilots prompt look at distracted flying" (on Yahoo! news)

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AP – FILE -- On Oct. 23, 2009 file image rendered from video and made available by KGW-TV in Portland, Ore., …



By JOAN LOWY and KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Write
AP Airlines Writer Joshua Freed in Minneapolis contributed to this report.

Joan Lowy

Transportation reporter at The Associated Press
Washington D.C. Metro Area

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• Reporter/editor at Scripps Howard News Service
• Washington correspondent at Rocky Mountain News
• Reporter at Rocky Mountain News

• Reporter at The Washington Star

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• The George Washington University

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Joan Lowy’s Summary

Journalist with three decades of experience writing and editing, including an in-depth knowledge of Congress, politics, and transportation, energy and environmental issues.

Joan Lowy’s Experience

• <LI class="experience vevent vcard">Transportation reporter
  
  The Associated Press
  
  (Newspapers industry)
  November 2006 — Present (3 years)
  Covering transportation issues -- planes, trains, automobiles,etc. -- for AP national wire since July 2008.
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  Scripps Howard News Service
  
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  April 1991 — October 2006 (15 years 7 months)
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  Rocky Mountain News
  
  (Newspapers industry)
  April 1985 — March 1991 (6 years)
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  Rocky Mountain News
  
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  BA , Journalism, minor Spanish , 1974 — 1978
  
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   JOAN A. LOWY is A NATIONAL REPORTER FOR SCRIPPS HOWARD NEWS SERVICE. SHE LIVES IN VIENNA, VIRGINIA. ...
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[Voice Of Reason]

Especially after this event, it should be clear that no one talks to ANYONE without an attorney present. Does ALPA have a card that you can carry to guide you in such matters?

...For example, something to the effect of:

"In light of previous federal investigations that were played out in the media....to prevent my words to you from being twisted in the public forum, and the fact that the results of this conversation may impact my career, I will need to have my attorney present while I fully cooperate with your investigation"

Put your applicable union rep, attorney (whether union or non), and/or other # in your speed dial and get them there asap.

....so there is or is NOT any guidance from ALPA to this effect?

 

[scoreboardII]

With your logic and reasoning, anyone who makes a mistake at any time regardless of past performance, deserves no due consideration. If everyone operated this way, there would be no doctors, engineers, pilots, or any other type of job that requires near perfection, for fear of losing the job due to a mistake. Why bother? These gentlemen screwed up big time, and deserve to be reprimanded severely. But in light of past actions,ie, great records, they deserve the right to earn themselves back into the profession which provides for their FAMILIES and themselves. Its amazing to me how many people will throw others under the bus and then ask for forgiveness when it's their ass on the line.

Please learn the difference between mistakes and crimes.

 

[onewithwings]

...you fail to realize that these two pilots are HUMAN BEINGS with a VERY LONG record of experience that was untarnished until now. Whether or not you feel you are infallible (and never did anything but stare at controls on your every flight)...have some $%^&&()g compassion if only for the fact that these guys just lost the only (non transferrable) career they have ever known, and none of your ignorant anonymous message board bashing can compare to what they are probably internalizing on their own right now.

Exactly! We ALL make mistakes. Wait until the FAA and NTSB have made their conclussions before you berate these people and keep your trash talk to yourself!

I'm tired of having to read ALL the unprofessional comments posted on this subject! Grow up, man up...this isn't Kindergarten. :angryfire

 

[Poahi]

It's interesting to me how no one came out in public in their defense. Why wouldn't ALPA defend them publicly? Even if ALPA thought they were not truthful, they could come out and support their clean record.

 

[colonel sanders]

Ok...I can lurk no longer. Are you guys kidding me? These guys were out of radio contact with ATC and their dispatchers for one and a half hours. They not only flew 150 miles beyond their IFR clearance, but also beyond the destination that the aircraft was dispatched to. They were in danger of being intercepted and shot down. And you guys call this a simple mistake? People bust their commercial rides every day simply because they cant find one of their checkpoints during the cross country portion. Situational awareness is fundamental. And these guys claim they lost all situational awareness, because they were on their laptops. Yeah right. If the frequency is silent for over 10 minutes, somebody is keying on checking to make sure center is still there. They have to be covering up the fact that they fell asleep. That's the only thing that makes any sense as to how this happened. All this experience these guys had just makes it even worse that they allowed this to happen. I strongly agree that if it was a regional crew that did this, everyone in this forum would crucify them. But since it involved a NW crew that was so experienced, they are perceived as humans that made a mistake. Taking off squawking the wrong txpdr code, calling chicago center "indy center" when checking in, and overspeeding the slats are all mistakes. Not sure what these guys were doing up there, but any ATP at that experience level should not be making mistakes like that anymore.

 

[Poahi]

I did find this statement from the DAL MEC. Sounds like they think this is ASAP'able.



Release #09.DAL3
October 26, 2009

Delta Pilots’ Union Issues Statement on Northwest Flight 188 Investigation

Atlanta—The Delta Master Executive Council, the Delta branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), the union that represents the over 12,000 pilots of Delta Air Lines*, today issued a statement concerning the NTSB investigation into Northwest Flight 188.

“As professional airline pilots, our primary concern is and always will be the safety and well-being of our passengers,” said Captain Lee Moak, Delta MEC Chairman. “In any aircraft incident, there is always more to the story than first appears in the press. We do not condone the abandonment of due process that will result from a rush to judgment; instead we implore all interested parties to move with deliberate and unemotional professionalism as the events surrounding this incident are investigated.”

On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, Air Traffic Control (ATC) lost radio contact with Northwest Flight 188, and Flight 188 subsequently overflew its destination before radio contact was reestablished. The aircraft remained visible to ATC radar at all times. Once radio contact was reestablished, the aircraft returned for a safe landing at its destination. At no time were the passengers, crew or aircraft in danger.

Over the past several years, labor, management, the industry and government agencies have partnered, expending significant amounts of time, money and effort, to develop programs such as Aviation Safety Action Programs (ASAP) and Flight Operational Quality Assurance (FOQA) programs designed to improve the safety of our nation’s aviation system. The core tenet of these programs is the ability of pilots to self disclose without fear of retribution in order to help make the U.S. aviation system the safest in the world.

“To date, all crew statements related to this case have been voluntary. We are disappointed that these voluntary statements are being used without regard for the breach of trust and confidence their use will cause,” Captain Moak remarked. “Programs like ASAP and FOQA could be dealt a debilitating blow as pilots question the integrity of these voluntary programs. A rush to judgment by the NTSB will have a direct impact on the future of voluntary safety programs, which are at the very core of the safety structure of the U.S. aviation industry. The continued viability of these programs themselves will be placed at risk. That will, in turn, cause irreparable harm to the safety of our nation’s aviation system.”

“The NTSB is an independent federal agency charged with determining the probable cause of transportation accidents and promoting transportation safety. They are not charged with prematurely releasing self-disclosed information to be sensationalized in the press,” Captain Moak insisted.

“We will work closely with Delta and federal officials to determine any root causes for last weeks sequence of events,” Captain Moak continued, “but in the meantime I strongly encourage all parties not to reach a hasty conclusion. There is a proper venue for this investigation, but we stand firmly behind the crew’s right to due process.”

Founded in 1931, ALPA represents 54,000 pilots at 36 airlines in the U.S. and Canada. ALPA represents over 12,000 Delta pilots. Visit the ALPA website at www.alpa.org, the Delta MEC website at www.deltapilots.org.

SOURCE: Air Line Pilots Association
CONTACT: DAL ALPA, Kelly Regus, 404-763-4925 office or [email protected]

 

[Flying the Line]

ASAP doesn't matter, this incident is not single source.

 

[GogglesPisano]

ASAP doesn't matter, this incident is not single source.

You still have certain protections under ASAP whether the incident is sole-source or not. What is exempt from ASAP is intentional disregard for safety/procedures.

 

[Caveman]

Ok...I can lurk no longer. Are you guys kidding me? These guys were out of radio contact with ATC and their dispatchers for one and a half hours. They not only flew 150 miles beyond their IFR clearance, but also beyond the destination that the aircraft was dispatched to. They were in danger of being intercepted and shot down. And you guys call this a simple mistake? People bust their commercial rides every day simply because they cant find one of their checkpoints during the cross country portion. Situational awareness is fundamental. And these guys claim they lost all situational awareness, because they were on their laptops. Yeah right. If the frequency is silent for over 10 minutes, somebody is keying on checking to make sure center is still there. They have to be covering up the fact that they fell asleep. That's the only thing that makes any sense as to how this happened. All this experience these guys had just makes it even worse that they allowed this to happen. I strongly agree that if it was a regional crew that did this, everyone in this forum would crucify them. But since it involved a NW crew that was so experienced, they are perceived as humans that made a mistake. Taking off squawking the wrong txpdr code, calling chicago center "indy center" when checking in, and overspeeding the slats are all mistakes. Not sure what these guys were doing up there, but any ATP at that experience level should not be making mistakes like that anymore.

Does it rise to the level of a career ending mistake? I say no.

 

[HomerJ]

Does it rise to the level of a career ending mistake? I say no.

What if the f/a hadn't called them and finally woke them up? Fuel exhaustion somewhere over northern Michigan. Would that qualify as a career ending mistake? I'll bet they're glad that buzzer is so loud.

 

[Caveman]

What if the f/a hadn't called them and finally woke them up? Fuel exhaustion somewhere over northern Michigan. Would that qualify as a career ending mistake? I'll bet they're glad that buzzer is so loud.

Probably, but that didn't happen. They landed safely. We can speculate til the cows come home about what ifs. Let's talk about what did happen. They screwed up. The mistake was trapped (finally) and the flight ended safely. There should be consequences, but permanently losing their certificates is excessive IMO.

 

[crj567]

I usually disagree with everything you say , but that's a pretty nice statement above!

Yeah-These are just human and we all make mistakes-they certainly deserve a second chance-especially since they are classy enough to not fly RJs.

 

[crj567]

You still have certain protections under ASAP whether the incident is sole-source or not. What is exempt from ASAP is intentional disregard for safety/procedures.

You are correct, sir. I think they will get their licenses back-eventually. The FAA is just trying to make it appear that they dropped the hammer on these guys.