Where will ACA D328J pilots go next?

[GogglesPisano]

In response to a question or two, it's 40%. If 40% of the operation goes, the Company must arrange for the pilots to obtain employment with the aircraft that are sold. The DoJets account for about 20% of our fleet.

If the contract is followed, and the DoJets go, ACA will have to furlough from the bottom of the list (CRJ, DoJet and J41 FO's)

 

[General Lee]

Well, maybe the company getting the Dojos would like to have some experienced Dojo pilots along with the jets.....maybe---maybe not...I hope job losses are minimal if anything like that happens....

Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[FlyingSig]

General Lee, please tell me how ACA flying the Dorniers while operating as IA would in anyway hurt your job security? It's not like they're going to put an Airbus on the CVG-DAY round. They are 2 different entities..DLC and Indy Air.

JMO - sorry I'm not the general - but Delta paying a company for a codeshare that subsadises an upstart company that takes revenue away from Delta hurts Delta, Delta pilots, and every employee under the Delta umbrella.

You guys want to start a new airline, great... good luck ... heck, I might even apply there someday if it works out - but in the meantime, start that new airline with your own money.

 

[Nindiri]

But would the little bit of revenue going to ACA hurt Delta more than the cost of operating the Dojets at another DCI carrier?

 

[FlyingSig]

But would the little bit of revenue going to ACA hurt Delta more than the cost of operating the Dojets at another DCI carrier?

I personally think it would be cost neutral to put the airframes at another carrier... I'm shooting from the hip and don't have any supporting documents in front of me, but the aircraft are Delta's once the ACA contract is terminated. I'm sure any costs associated with training/upstart will be structured in how the new carrier gets paid by Delta (not to mention yet another "one time charge" to help with the taxes). Delta's network and fleet is large enough that the rest of DCI - and heaven forbid - mainline - could easily absorb the capacity of 30 or so 32 seat jets without much service interuption. Such costs are defined and mostly fixed.

On the other side of the coin, every dollar that goes out of Delta's pocket and spent getting new passengers at independence is an unaccountable lost revenue for as long as IA is in existance. It's not a "little bit" of revenue unless only a "few" passengers try IA once and then go back to Delta. Again, nothing wrong with competition - it's the American way. But right now Delta dollars are being spent on a product that does not exist and will in no way ever benefit Delta. Once IA starts operating - using Delta dollars to market and attact new customers, some of which will probably be Delta customers - will cause far more damage over the long run if IA is successful. AirTran is a perfect example of why Delta should not help IA get started. You think the short term profit of selling DC-9's outweighed the lost revenue in the ATL market?

Again, my remarks at not a knock at the new airline or it's concept. I just beleive anyone with a vested interest in the long term health of Delta should agree that the ACA contract should be terminated in accordance with the Delta Pilot's working agreement once greater then 70 seat aircraft are put into service.

 

[House_X]

JMO - sorry I'm not the general - but Delta paying a company for a codeshare that subsadises an upstart company that takes revenue away from Delta hurts Delta, Delta pilots, and every employee under the Delta umbrella.

You guys want to start a new airline, great... good luck ... heck, I might even apply there someday if it works out - but in the meantime, start that new airline with your own money.

I agree, there is no way Delta will fund a competitor. I've been hearing from our side that we cannot hurt Delta by starting an LLC and flying Delta Connection at the same time. I guess they don't have Economics 101 at "Riddle". I think many are in denial and don't want to fathom the Dorniers being yanked from under us.

 

[Heavy Set]

I think General's point is that Delta won't fund a potential direct competitor... I don't know many non-airline companies that fund potential direct competitors either...

 

[SaladShooter]

How the end game is going to be played is anyones guess. Who knows if DALPA will force DAL to eat the Do's. That possibility is as good as ACA not getting 3 straight months of 95.5 completion factor off the FRJ's and DAL forcing ACA to eat the airplanes. The only thing I do know is that somebody is going to be stuck with those airplanes and I sure hope beyond all hope that it is not ACA, at least not in the near future. That would be a blood bath and would not be good for the start of I Air.

 

[TechRep]

ACA/Midwest Express Fleet Transfer (rumo

My inside sources within ACA/Midwest Express tell me that all Delta Connection Dornier 328JETS operated by ACA will be sold to Midwest Express. Midwest Express will assume the lease and maintenance contracts and agree in interest to assume control of all ACA 328JET operated aircraft. Pratt & Whitney has assured Midwest Express, before the filling, that the P&W306B, 1st and 2nd stage turbine blade erosion abnormality will be addressed during engine overhaul.

Reduced Power Take Off has also been tentatively approved by AvCraft, which will further improve the reliability of the turbine blades. If I were an ACA Delta Connection 328JET Crewmember I would begin to ask questions.

TechRep

 

[General Lee]

There you go....

 

[JTrain]

Here is my completely unofficial projection of how the D328J situation will play out at ACA. Note I'm nobody special, just your average FRJ line stiff, possibly a bit more in tune with the DoJets than most but not all (me=regional airline news/internet junkie), and hopefully I won't stick my foot in my mouth like that jr. CRJ CA on the ALPA website.....

I project that Comair will take over operation of the D328Js. When is anybody's guess, but I'm thinking sooner rather than later (within a year). Now, here's where it gets interesting. A lot of our FRJ guys are concerned that our union will somehow short us and try to get us to disappear with the FRJs; I don't believe any of that hype. Personally what I think will happen.........ACA won't be able to accomodate all ~350-400 of us coming back at once, and Comair won't be able to spool up and train enough crews to staff the airplane at once. We may be fenced in the airplane for a period of time, maybe a year or more, with an allowance made for X amount of pilots per month to transition back to Independence Air. This would also allow Comair time to train their own on the FRJs.

Pilots will be given the option of staying with ACA or staying with Comair; if you had asked me in the summer what I would do were I offered DOH at Comair, back then I would've likely said Comair, but now, I'm quite impressed with the whole Indy Air prep/planning and am willing to give it a shot. Some ACAers who've settled in Cincinnati may choose to stay with Comair. There will likely be a considerable amount of withholding pay involved to compensate those in the ACA FRJ community who could hold Airbus CA/FO positions but will be locked in the FRJ.
It will be painful - there are a lot of FRJ pilots who commute from IAD and are dying to get back there and it will suck to not be at FLYI from the get-go. However we will be given the opportunity to get back there within a reasonable timeframe.

Again, this is just my completely unofficial wild guess opinion - don't flame me too much - and I'd appreciate other ACA or other perspectives on the issues.

JTrain

 

[TechRep]

I suggest you apply at Midwest Express pronto.

TechRep

 

[w4mch]

J Train,

Your time line is plausable, but listen to TechRep as to where the Do-Do's are headed (not that I know anything, but it appears he does).

Gen Lee is also right, DL will never allow a potential competitor to also be a feeder, regardless of the DLALPA scope issues over there.

It also doesn't make sence for IA to piss off more than one big legacy carrier coming out of the gate. The fact that we have put rights to force DL to eat the planes just means that we have leverage in whatever talks may transpire. A win-win for ACA & DL is the best outcome, and just maybe there will be pilot seats for the affected drivers.

Having said that, for any MEC to allow furlough out of seniority is political suicide. That ain't gonna happen, but having "assigned pilots" has occured before in ACA's history any may not be a bad deal if the other option is 300 or so off the bottom.

 

[chperplt]

I think the Dojets are going by-by.. Regarldless who eventually gets the ACA flying on the connection side, the Dojets won't have a part in it.

DAL sells the airplanes at a loss in trade of CRJs. ASA or Comair maintains an all CRJ fleet and DAL gets a nice tax write-off for the loss.

 

[JTrain]

w4mch & TechRep,

Both you guys bring have good points, however I have a hard time seeing how Skyway could digest our 33 Dorniers. They have what - 15 FRJs tops right now - you're asking them to triple their fleet overnight - thats a lot to expect! They may seem like a logical destination for the FRJs - however just because they are one of the few U.S. operations of the D328J doesn't meant they CAN instantly take over our DCI operation. If you're going to throw Skyways' name out there, I'll retort by saying why not Great Plains? Heck, why not have the Philip Morris/Altria Corporate Flight Dept take over our DCI operation, since they operate a D328J, I'm sure they could do it also . Or maybe even Hainan Airlines is lurking in the background somewhere, waiting to penetrate the U.S. regional airline market.....

IMHO Comair is still a much more logical destination for the FRJs. Although -disclaimer- I tend to not believe Comair folks who claim they have instructors who've already been typed in D328J/have pilots in tng pipeline for FRJ already/have been issue FRJ publications/are anticipating being jr. manned to D328J, etc....


Enjoying this discussion,

JTrain

 

[w4mch]

I personally have no clue as to where the do-do's wil land, but it does not make sense for Comair/ASA to add another fleet type. Also, DL wants to spread the flying around to keep the regionals fighting each other for growth.

Enjoying the conversation as well, but feel for our junior folks at the same time. I've been through 2 furloughs and one "oh by the way, you work over at company X starting tomorrow" in my career. They all hurt, but being shipped over to ACA was the lesser pain and years later has turned out to be a blessing.

 

[TechRep]

I worked for Great Plains as a principal and we are out of business, Hainan already received their options and the other operators you mentioned are part 91 operations.

I didn't say that the entire fleet would be dumped overnight; a transition or phase out action plan will be implemented. Gradually the aircraft will be bridged to the Midwest Express Maintenance Program from ACA, painted and configuration adjustments made. This action plan based on a 33 aircraft schedule will probably take 1 year to complete.

Doesn't it make you wonder why AvCraft Aviation (328 factory service center) moved their entire 145-repair facility to South Carolina from Ohio last month? The reason is to support C Checks and this transition (bridging) arrangement between the two operators.

I formally worked for Fairchild Dornier so lets say I have a little inside information. Try and guess what I did..

TechRep

 

[House_X]

w4mch & TechRep,

Both you guys bring have good points, however I have a hard time seeing how Skyway could digest our 33 Dorniers. They have what - 15 FRJs tops right now - you're asking them to triple their fleet overnight - thats a lot to expect! They may seem like a logical destination for the FRJs - however just because they are one of the few U.S. operations of the D328J doesn't meant they CAN instantly take over our DCI operation. If you're going to throw Skyways' name out there, I'll retort by saying why not Great Plains? Heck, why not have the Philip Morris/Altria Corporate Flight Dept take over our DCI operation, since they operate a D328J, I'm sure they could do it also . Or maybe even Hainan Airlines is lurking in the background somewhere, waiting to penetrate the U.S. regional airline market.....

IMHO Comair is still a much more logical destination for the FRJs. Although -disclaimer- I tend to not believe Comair folks who claim they have instructors who've already been typed in D328J/have pilots in tng pipeline for FRJ already/have been issue FRJ publications/are anticipating being jr. manned to D328J, etc....


Enjoying this discussion,

JTrain

The Skyway rumor seems more plausable to me. I know some Comair F/O's and, as far as I know, the rumor of having people trainned in the airplane is false. Comair doesn't want anything to do with our bird...since we fly to Comair stations, they are fully aware of it's operational issues.

Skyway, on the other hand, has absolutely no future with Midwest Airlines...they are aggresively looking to expand and they will "name that tune" at lesser costs than ACA...I'm sure Delta is "licking their chops" at the Skyway proposal. To Skyway, it's a matter of survival. Training crews is not as difficult as you may think. We could be wet leased to Skyway as crews and airplanes are phased from one company to another. This has been done before...it would be a slow process, but it can be done. Also, Skyway has been successful at solving the 1VE panel issue and other MX issues...they have been operating the aircraft longer than ACA. Discounting Skyway is like David vs Goliath...and we know how that story ended.

Ever since I've been onboard with ACA it's been all bad news...but we have perservered...we have a great pilot group and I think Independance Air is the light at the end the tunnel...hopefully that light won't be a freight train.

 

[d328amt]

This whole Skyway info is a new twist to the never ending ACA DoJet rumor mill......hmmmm only time will tell

 

[AirBoard]

Me thinks status quo.

ACA is really just a supplier of feed to DAL. They pay us fee for departutre and we look after the rest. What happens when we transform into IA, does DAL pull the plug? No, they'll just wait until DALPA raises the red flag. Why should DAL have to worry about moving planes around and renogotiate contracts when they have MUCH bigger fish to fry. Okay, so maybe IA will compete on some routes - will this bother DAL so much on principle that they go out and move the dojets themself without DALPA forcing their hand, no unless things are running smoothly.

I really can't imagine ACA's situation takes up a whole lot of discussion time in the higher ranks of DAL mgmt. Like I said before they got other things they need to address. By the time all these things are worked out our contract will almost be up anyway.

My .02 cents.

 

[ifly4food]

our people in Flight Standards are doing a lot of planning, on how to incorporate the DoJet and create an ATL crew base to name a few, but at this point it's all contingency planning.

basically, they want to be ahead of the game if Delta makes a decision, but so far we've received no indication that we're getting the DoJet. We've also received no indication that we're getting an ATL base, despite the large prescence there.

if the rumor mill is any guide, it sounds like ATL is out now...

I''ve heard very reliably that CMR is now (within the last week) being told to forget the ATL domicile and plan to "devote their resources to the Northeast". Read what you want into that.

Regarding the Doorknobs, I've also been told that Bombardier has offered DAL a trade in deal for CRJs.

 

[Propblast]

but we have perservered...we have a great pilot group and I think Independance Air is the light at the end the tunnel...hopefully that light won't be a freight train.

We do have a great pilot group and I don't know how the issue with the DoJets will work out. You stated earlier that we have a great rift within our pilot group - I disagree with that (in fact, those statements are contradictory). What we do have is a few bad apples that know if a large percentage of DoJet pilots exercise their seniority they might be forced into a situation they don't want. These "bad apples" shouldn't characterize a rift just as they shouldn't characterize a pilot group.

Propblast

 

[skiddriver]

After careful questioning of the appropriate people, I think I can say that absolutely no one in our training department is getting qualified in the DoJet.

No one really wants the DoJets. The routes and who are going to be paid to fly them are the issue.

 

[JTrain]

Getting back to the original topic of this thread (sorry guys - I enjoyed your FlyI updates - I just wanna discuss the FRJ situation some more .......

To TechRep

-Wouldn't passing the ACA D328Js to Skyway create the exact type of situation you're trying to avoid? The driving factor behind ACA having to dispose of them is the fact that now as Independence Air we'll now be competing with DAL. However Skyway is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Midwest Airlines, and who compete with (drumroll please) ..... Delta!!!!!

-Upon furthur review and thought at my end, I think a much more logical thing would be to have the FRJs shuffled off to the DCI family, most likely Comair. Then, Comair could possibly do some buyback/swap with Bombardier, to essentially swap in the 33 D328Js for CRJs. I believe Comair did this with some of their E120s, and ACA was in the process of doing this with their J-41s (being replaced/Fairchild Dornier assuming the leases/J-41s being replaced with FRJs) when Dornier went bankrupt in the spring of 2002.

Thoughts?

JTrain

 

[House_X]

Getting back to the original topic of this thread (sorry guys - I enjoyed your FlyI updates - I just wanna discuss the FRJ situation some more .......

To TechRep

-Wouldn't passing the ACA D328Js to Skyway create the exact type of situation you're trying to avoid? The driving factor behind ACA having to dispose of them is the fact that now as Independence Air we'll now be competing with DAL. However Skyway is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Midwest Airlines, and who compete with (drumroll please) ..... Delta!!!!!

-Upon furthur review and thought at my end, I think a much more logical thing would be to have the FRJs shuffled off to the DCI family, most likely Comair. Then, Comair could possibly do some buyback/swap with Bombardier, to essentially swap in the 33 D328Js for CRJs. I believe Comair did this with some of their E120s, and ACA was in the process of doing this with their J-41s (being replaced/Fairchild Dornier assuming the leases/J-41s being replaced with FRJs) when Dornier went bankrupt in the spring of 2002.

Thoughts?

JTrain

JTrain
Skyway's gonna get'em...Delta's goal is to increase the number of contractors in order to increase competition. Having Skyway and CHQ as DCI carriers will enhance Delta's goal of competitive bidding.

Propblast
Out here on the perimeter (CVG) we are "forgotten ones". We have a great pilot group. However, there is a small rift...it's always been there, ever since the ACJet days. We (Dorniers) are only 15% of the profit for ACA and we are treated as such. Thankfully, many CA's are senior on the airplane and our MEC is properly represented by Dornier CA's...I think this will keep the tremors on the rift to a minimum.

 

[JTrain]

House X,

I hear ya. Some guys here in BOS are really starting to stress the whole future-of-the-FRJ issue. I don't worry too much ---- yet, I have confidence our union folks and the FRJ community is well represented within our MEC and some senior CAs as well. However others aren't nearly as optimistic as me. As long as a certain jr. CRJ CA isn't made MEC chair, we'll be alright.....

Regards,

JTrain

 

[jobear]

To TechRep

-Wouldn't passing the ACA D328Js to Skyway create the exact type of situation you're trying to avoid? The driving factor behind ACA having to dispose of them is the fact that now as Independence Air we'll now be competing with DAL. However Skyway is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Midwest Airlines, and who compete with (drumroll please) ..... Delta!!!!!

JTrain

JTrain,
Nice try but that dog don't hunt. Midwest Connect is a wholly owned sub of Midwest Airlines (big) BUT we do not operate on the same certificate. As I remember ACA could have used the ACJet certificate but...
If it were a competitive standpoint then CHQ & SKYW would have never been DCI carriers since they fly for competing airlines.

Hope this muddies the waters

Jobear

 

[FlyWolf]

The rumor here in milwaukee is that its a done deal with Skyway, and all they have to do is sign the contract to operate the Dornier Jets for Delta

 

[TechRep]

update

An individual contacted me via e-mail and requested if this information could be added to this topic.

Would like to start off saying that Midwest Express and Astral Aviation offically changed their names as of 1/1/03. The names are now Midwest Airlines and Skyway Airlines (d/b/a Midwest Connect). However the parent company has still stayed the same as Midwest Express Holdings and their traded name is the Midwest Air Group.

Anyhow, on to the 328 ACA issue. Midwest Connect was contacted by Delta on the issue of 328Jet service instead of ACA. Midwest Connect would not be buying out ACA's 328 per say, but instead would be aquiring the 328s and would continue to serve the Delta 328 network out of CVG. All the employees would be Midwest Connect: Pilots, FAs, Ramp. (IE: What Air Wisconsin is to UAL) Back in Feburary, Delta officals came into Milwaukee to check out the Midwest Connect flight operations, maintaince hanger and staff. After spending two days in Milwaukee, Delta was very pleased with how the company handles and cares for the 328Jet. The reason why Delta has come to Midwest Connect is for one reason, to save money. As most people don't know, Midwest Connect is one of the most under paying airlines in the country. Our pilots, FAs and CSR staff put up with a lot in the hopes that they will eventually get paided what they should. However at this time the discussion between Midwest Connect and Delta are still going on but management is commenting on how the talks are going, hopefully it would be for the better as this would mean more money and possibly instating all the past due pay raises that almost everyone has coming.

-Dan Walloch-

 

[Cappy]

I spoke directly with Tom Moore last Friday on this very subject so here are the latest and greatest facts:

- Delta must give ACA six months notice of cancelation. Anything less trigers a "put" option in which ACA can put the 328's on Delta.

- If we are given six months then there ARE airlines that want them. Skyway is one and one, possibly two, others.

- In that case the pilots will initially be fenced off from bidding within the acquiring airlines pilot group and instead will operate seperately until bidding back to ACA or having the option to stay on at airline X.

- You never know what might happen. The Delta MEC may see the acquiring airline as competition and give relief only to ACA and limit the number of 328's or other acft ACA can operate for Delta Connection.

-The 328's reliability was 99.2% last month.

That's all I have.

328 guys just need to relax and not worry until more facts present themselves.