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Where will ACA D328J pilots go next?
- Thread starter On Your Six
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I agree, if I were an FRJ FO near the bottom I would be a bit nervous - you just might not have a lot of options... Can the same be said for the J41 FOs?
Having flown on an FRJ as a PAX for the first time a few weeks ago, I know it is a comfortable product for passengers - it's got to fit a niche somewhere... I guess reliability and economics will help to determine its fate.
Having flown on an FRJ as a PAX for the first time a few weeks ago, I know it is a comfortable product for passengers - it's got to fit a niche somewhere... I guess reliability and economics will help to determine its fate.
StaySeated
IBT does not represent ME
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 782
"Back in Feburary, Delta officals came into Milwaukee to check out the Midwest Connect flight operations, maintaince hanger and staff. After spending two days in Milwaukee, Delta was very pleased with how the company handles and cares for the 328Jet. "
The classic aviation rumor. Did these officials bump into the same frontier or jb officials that supposedly walked around the same ops? Please do not insult our intelligence and lead us to believe that any sort of contract is based upon a "walk around" of a hanger and operations area. Blah, blah, blah......Skyway has a severe attrition problem and any rumor about additional aircraft is a huge blessing for their cause. They need everyone to believe that something is going to happen.
If anyone is interested in the fate of the dorks, read both ACA's contract and dig around for the financing on the aircraft. They are not going to comair and they are not going to skyway.
Just my opinion, of course.
The classic aviation rumor. Did these officials bump into the same frontier or jb officials that supposedly walked around the same ops? Please do not insult our intelligence and lead us to believe that any sort of contract is based upon a "walk around" of a hanger and operations area. Blah, blah, blah......Skyway has a severe attrition problem and any rumor about additional aircraft is a huge blessing for their cause. They need everyone to believe that something is going to happen.
If anyone is interested in the fate of the dorks, read both ACA's contract and dig around for the financing on the aircraft. They are not going to comair and they are not going to skyway.
Just my opinion, of course.
StaySeated,
Nice perspective. People are far too willing to believe the rumor of the day in this business. The potential cloud that going to Skyway would be for the ACA FRJ community would suck - however I give it very little credibility. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed there will be some sort of bid within the next few months so I can escape to the CRJ or if I'm extremely lucky the Airbus.
JTrain.
Nice perspective. People are far too willing to believe the rumor of the day in this business. The potential cloud that going to Skyway would be for the ACA FRJ community would suck - however I give it very little credibility. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed there will be some sort of bid within the next few months so I can escape to the CRJ or if I'm extremely lucky the Airbus.
JTrain.
~~~^~~~
Well-known member
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- 6,137
Again, the General is wrong and I can prove it.w4mch said:
American Eagle feeds DAL flights, with DAL code, for the LAX base. Yes, Sports Fans, American Eagle is a Delta Connection Carrier, in the portfolio and everything....
And as great as Independence Air is bound to be, I still think American is a competitor - eh'
List of the Delta Connection Portfolio - Note Eagle is listed FIRST!
Last edited:
JT
JTrain ...
Just was wondering if a Skyway employee stoled your girl friend or insulted your family name? Your dislike of us seems a little over the top (from this thread and others before) Anyway I hope you get on the Airbus and find inner peace, well thats to much to ask for so lets just hope for the Airbus!
I realize its a stressful time to be at ACA but you have a great opportunity also.
Best of luck BS
JTrain ...
Just was wondering if a Skyway employee stoled your girl friend or insulted your family name? Your dislike of us seems a little over the top (from this thread and others before) Anyway I hope you get on the Airbus and find inner peace, well thats to much to ask for so lets just hope for the Airbus!
I realize its a stressful time to be at ACA but you have a great opportunity also.
Best of luck BS
General Lee
Well-known member
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FlyingSig
Double Breasted _ _ _
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- Dec 1, 2001
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Fins,
In regads to Eagle (as I'm sure you're aware...but then you "point" wouldn't apply), Delta only code shares with those Eagle flights. Those flights "feed" American while Delta is able to market a few seats on every flight and allow DAL pax on them. Delta has no control over the schedule or guage of those flights and has no say in whether they continue in a given market. The only part of the "portfolio" Eagle is in is the block hour percentage... every hour they fly is one less a real DCI carrier gets to.
In regads to Eagle (as I'm sure you're aware...but then you "point" wouldn't apply), Delta only code shares with those Eagle flights. Those flights "feed" American while Delta is able to market a few seats on every flight and allow DAL pax on them. Delta has no control over the schedule or guage of those flights and has no say in whether they continue in a given market. The only part of the "portfolio" Eagle is in is the block hour percentage... every hour they fly is one less a real DCI carrier gets to.
ACA mechanics are protected under contract, and ACA has to offer a position within the company for the DoJet mechs. They cannot sell us off with the aircraft. If there were not any positions available, than just like the pilots layoffs would commence from the bottom regardless if you work the UEX or DLC side. I've been with the company 3 years, all Dojet, and I will be moving to IAD when BOS closes shop. Tell you what though, those that say skyways does better MX wise needs to look at the big picture, we run 3x as many 328 as they do. Of course our numbers will be worse. CVG was brought on board 1.5 years or so ago, and most of the MX there is new hires. That dosen't help any. Someone said that Skyways has solved the 1VE issue, so have we. WE BOTH USE THE SAME COMPONETS! Same vendor guys. ACA has some of the most experienced 328JET guys out there. And we do an excellent job with the aircraft we are handed. Talk to Dunlop tech reps, PWC guys, and tech reps for the 328 in general. Hell a former FD rep is the BOS MX manager. It may be in whoever gets this angry little bird to try to entice any MX support they can get out of us. Its taken 3+ years to operate this smoothly, and Comair, or even Skyways will have all the same probs we had. Skyways cannot go from 10 to 40 328's in one night. You cannot support that kind of growth instantly. Not to mention parts, books, hanger space....the list goes on and on. It take a hell of alot more than the average Daily and Line ck that the crews see to keep this bird flying. It isn't easily replaced, this is not a Boeing or Airbus after all. This is a low production, defunct manufacturer, zero factory support aircraft we are dealing with. Most crews don't realize that. Also DL is obligated to 30 ACA 328's not the mentioned 33. 451FJ, 452FJ, 500FJ are ACA owned ( or leased, bottom line is they are our problem, not DL ).
TechRep
Always a JUVAT
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Posts
- 47
1VE the misunderstood abomination
Lets understand the 1VE problem, since many here are not Doinker people.
The operators of the Do328-300 can’t solve the 1VE problem but are left with an end result equation. Common fault isolation can be achieved using the DC Breakout box. The Breakout Box will not address problems upstream of the Generator Control Unit nor will it tell you anything if the system is not hard failed. A Breakout box is simply a series of clearly identified jumpers where voltage readings can be taken without opening the system.
The heart of the "todays" problem in the DC Generation and Control System is not the 1VE per say but the Hall Effect Sensor.
http://www.micronas.com/products/overview/sensors/index.php
The Heart Corporation originally manufactured the 1VE, if you look at some of the Dornier wiring manuals, you will sometimes see it referred to as the Heart Panel or 1VE. The 1VE gets its name from the first engineered component within the VE (electrical) system and 2VE, A/C Generation and Control was next, etc.
The Heart Corporation was offered engineering plans from Dornier and told to build the unit. Heart told them they were smoking crack and the units would not hold up under real-time operational loads. The Germans are very bullheaded you see and insisted this was a perfect design, sound familiar? Now begins the sticky part.
I visited with Barfield in Miami and made them demonstrate to me proper tear down of the 1VE and what did I find, over temped Hall Effect Sensors (HECS) on APU side. HECS are $2800 each. Thermal tape is now being applied directly to HECS to monitor heat ranges.
The HECS can only take about 65C (149 Degrees) of temperature variance and become unstable or smoke check beyond that range. Sometimes when the units drop below 65C they will become functional again. Each time they are over temped they become more erratic and failure prone. INTERMITTENT the scurge of every mechanic or electricain.
The problem with the 1VE is the design plain and simple. The HECS are being over temped from improper design. You see this German engineered beauty supports; DC Generator System, Battery System, Emergency DC Power System, APU/DC Starter/Generator System and External Power. If you’re Turbo Prop add engine starting to that equation.
The real problem can be traced to circuit share. The Right/APU systems share the same path logic but the left side is left independent. Had the Germans sectioned the box into three independent control schemes, instead of two, there would be no problem. Since the RH/APU shares the same circuits the heat becomes transferred to the what? That's right the HECS. Ever wonder why you have 10 to 1 in squawks between the LH DC systems as opposed to the R/H/APU DC System. Ever wonder why aircraft with no APU do not experience the same 1VE troubles.
I know because Great Plains operated the only Part 121 mixed fleet, Props and Jets, in the USA, ever. Talk about a glution for punishment huh? The entire time we operated the 328-100 (Prop) we changed only one 1VE and it went into parts saver and the GCU was found at fault.
There is apparently an answer on the horizon, with the advent of a new HECS sensor to be released sometime in summer. The new "MOD D" Sensor will be completely redesigned with thermal dissipation in mind. The new sensors will include components more suited to thermal protection and provide working architecture past the 65C barrier.
So the next time you see residual Amperage on your electrical system page and your pulling up that center floorboard remember the average repair of a 1VE is $20K.
Thanks Dornier for making a brilliant aircraft, **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing it up with inferior support, dragging your feat for so many years with poorly designed systems and then blaming the customers. The following statement is why this company failed.
Love,
TechRep
Lets understand the 1VE problem, since many here are not Doinker people.
The operators of the Do328-300 can’t solve the 1VE problem but are left with an end result equation. Common fault isolation can be achieved using the DC Breakout box. The Breakout Box will not address problems upstream of the Generator Control Unit nor will it tell you anything if the system is not hard failed. A Breakout box is simply a series of clearly identified jumpers where voltage readings can be taken without opening the system.
The heart of the "todays" problem in the DC Generation and Control System is not the 1VE per say but the Hall Effect Sensor.
http://www.micronas.com/products/overview/sensors/index.php
The Heart Corporation originally manufactured the 1VE, if you look at some of the Dornier wiring manuals, you will sometimes see it referred to as the Heart Panel or 1VE. The 1VE gets its name from the first engineered component within the VE (electrical) system and 2VE, A/C Generation and Control was next, etc.
The Heart Corporation was offered engineering plans from Dornier and told to build the unit. Heart told them they were smoking crack and the units would not hold up under real-time operational loads. The Germans are very bullheaded you see and insisted this was a perfect design, sound familiar? Now begins the sticky part.
I visited with Barfield in Miami and made them demonstrate to me proper tear down of the 1VE and what did I find, over temped Hall Effect Sensors (HECS) on APU side. HECS are $2800 each. Thermal tape is now being applied directly to HECS to monitor heat ranges.
The HECS can only take about 65C (149 Degrees) of temperature variance and become unstable or smoke check beyond that range. Sometimes when the units drop below 65C they will become functional again. Each time they are over temped they become more erratic and failure prone. INTERMITTENT the scurge of every mechanic or electricain.
The problem with the 1VE is the design plain and simple. The HECS are being over temped from improper design. You see this German engineered beauty supports; DC Generator System, Battery System, Emergency DC Power System, APU/DC Starter/Generator System and External Power. If you’re Turbo Prop add engine starting to that equation.
The real problem can be traced to circuit share. The Right/APU systems share the same path logic but the left side is left independent. Had the Germans sectioned the box into three independent control schemes, instead of two, there would be no problem. Since the RH/APU shares the same circuits the heat becomes transferred to the what? That's right the HECS. Ever wonder why you have 10 to 1 in squawks between the LH DC systems as opposed to the R/H/APU DC System. Ever wonder why aircraft with no APU do not experience the same 1VE troubles.
I know because Great Plains operated the only Part 121 mixed fleet, Props and Jets, in the USA, ever. Talk about a glution for punishment huh? The entire time we operated the 328-100 (Prop) we changed only one 1VE and it went into parts saver and the GCU was found at fault.
There is apparently an answer on the horizon, with the advent of a new HECS sensor to be released sometime in summer. The new "MOD D" Sensor will be completely redesigned with thermal dissipation in mind. The new sensors will include components more suited to thermal protection and provide working architecture past the 65C barrier.
So the next time you see residual Amperage on your electrical system page and your pulling up that center floorboard remember the average repair of a 1VE is $20K.
Thanks Dornier for making a brilliant aircraft, **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing it up with inferior support, dragging your feat for so many years with poorly designed systems and then blaming the customers. The following statement is why this company failed.
Love,
TechRep
That was a good way of explaining it. See, there is no real "solving" of that f**ed up box. We've been told that it has heat issues, and when the warm months come back so will the 1VE probs. Tech rep, Barfield did mod the box by installing cooling vents, but the kicker is that they installed the vents on the side of the box that mounts to the wall!!! Not too much extra cooling gonna take place.
Someone also made a comment about the CRJ having better avionics than the 328. We run the Honeywell Primus 2000 system, which is highly regarded. As fas as legitimate avionics probs, we see very little. The system is computer controlled, and when you quickly scroll between screens, swap power sources and such you will sometimes get a red x. Usually only for a sec or two. For the amount of time these aircraft see, the avionics are really a non-issue. Before anyone says what about N429FJ ( mulit-screen failures 2 years ago, twice ) that was an electical system fault, that kicked the screens off line. Thats like saying my #1 engine quit because of bad gas, but its the engines fault. The Primus 2000 system ( tech rep problably knows bettr than I ), is run on Falcons, Citations, and is very well liked. Correct me if i'm wrong, but if I remember back to our contract MX days for CHQ, their EMB 145's run the same thing. Our CRJ avionics are antique. Some of our CRJ's don't even have ACARS and GPS.
And those that think the 'Bus will be perfect, talk to someone who flies it already. A very close family member of mine is a CA over at US and I hear all the same probs we have. Ctrl+Alt+Delete. Reset the fault. We have former UAL MX guys w/us in BOS that are system trained on their A319's and they tell the same story. Get used to the glass up front, it isn't going anywhere.
Someone also made a comment about the CRJ having better avionics than the 328. We run the Honeywell Primus 2000 system, which is highly regarded. As fas as legitimate avionics probs, we see very little. The system is computer controlled, and when you quickly scroll between screens, swap power sources and such you will sometimes get a red x. Usually only for a sec or two. For the amount of time these aircraft see, the avionics are really a non-issue. Before anyone says what about N429FJ ( mulit-screen failures 2 years ago, twice ) that was an electical system fault, that kicked the screens off line. Thats like saying my #1 engine quit because of bad gas, but its the engines fault. The Primus 2000 system ( tech rep problably knows bettr than I ), is run on Falcons, Citations, and is very well liked. Correct me if i'm wrong, but if I remember back to our contract MX days for CHQ, their EMB 145's run the same thing. Our CRJ avionics are antique. Some of our CRJ's don't even have ACARS and GPS.
And those that think the 'Bus will be perfect, talk to someone who flies it already. A very close family member of mine is a CA over at US and I hear all the same probs we have. Ctrl+Alt+Delete. Reset the fault. We have former UAL MX guys w/us in BOS that are system trained on their A319's and they tell the same story. Get used to the glass up front, it isn't going anywhere.
TechRep
Always a JUVAT
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Posts
- 47
There are two camps in the regional avionics world, Collins Proline people and Honeywell Primus people. To which system is better is very subjective and I am very biased toward Honeywell.
The Cadillac of Corporate Jets the Gulfstream G4 and G5 as well as the Citation X all employ Honeywell Primus and Epic Primus avionics suites. I think Collins is crap but that’s just my opinion.
Your only hope for a permanent 1VE fix is mod’ed HECS sensors. I suggest you tell your airline to preorder them based on the summer launch. They will also be more expensive around $4800 each, so they have essentially raped you without lubricant; you’re fundamentally paying them to fix their own problem.
Remember you have 6 sensors total, a + HEC sensor in the 1VE and a - HEC sensor in the wing leading edge/APU Tail Cone. I suggest matching the units with APU installed that comes to a grand total of......$28,800 each aircraft and times 33 aircraft $953,000. Include downtime, maintenance costs and lost revenue and I estimate your company will be out around $3.5 Million. Can you feel it sliding in your backside yet???
TechRep
The Cadillac of Corporate Jets the Gulfstream G4 and G5 as well as the Citation X all employ Honeywell Primus and Epic Primus avionics suites. I think Collins is crap but that’s just my opinion.
Your only hope for a permanent 1VE fix is mod’ed HECS sensors. I suggest you tell your airline to preorder them based on the summer launch. They will also be more expensive around $4800 each, so they have essentially raped you without lubricant; you’re fundamentally paying them to fix their own problem.
Remember you have 6 sensors total, a + HEC sensor in the 1VE and a - HEC sensor in the wing leading edge/APU Tail Cone. I suggest matching the units with APU installed that comes to a grand total of......$28,800 each aircraft and times 33 aircraft $953,000. Include downtime, maintenance costs and lost revenue and I estimate your company will be out around $3.5 Million. Can you feel it sliding in your backside yet???
TechRep
tech Rep, you make it sound so nice.
Same guy who commented on the avionics also say the CRJ is a far superior aircraft. Ok, depends what you are talking about. The CRJ cannot hang in the short hop CVG market ( if they could, why dosen't Comair run those routes? Or for those who like the mix up the connection carriers arguement why not CHQ then? Why would Delta put up with the issues with the 328? ) They like it, thats why. I'll take the Dojet on a route under 200mi any day. The RJ obviously has higher cruise speeds, more seats, higher service ceiling, but whats left? The cabin sucks, hands down. I'm 5'11" and I can't even take a leak in the bathroom while standing up straight! The pax windows suck, the seats suck, Canadair should have just removed the airstairs and thrown a ladder out there ( weight savings )because I feel like thats what i'm going up when I enter that cabin, steep!
The Dojet climbs like a raped ape, rarley has overweight issues ( BOS-JFK, 4500lbs of fuel, full pax, and lots of those "international bags") it becomes a weight and balance issue rather than a MTOW issue. How many 328 crews out of BOS have done that route and see the Proxy sys fail on taxi out? So tail heavy the NLG WOW switch contacts no longer make contact. The jet takes a beating. 10+ cycles a day. Thats 10 times the engines achieve T/O pwr. 10 landings, numerous APU starts and stops, weather from the mid-west to the hot and humid south, to the hellish north east corridor. Remote parking in BOS is sometimes right next to the harbor, yup that salt water sure is good for them. I know nothing at all about Skyways, but compaire our operation to theirs, and ask yourselves if they really could just take them and make it work? Like I said, its taken 3 years to get this far.
Same guy who commented on the avionics also say the CRJ is a far superior aircraft. Ok, depends what you are talking about. The CRJ cannot hang in the short hop CVG market ( if they could, why dosen't Comair run those routes? Or for those who like the mix up the connection carriers arguement why not CHQ then? Why would Delta put up with the issues with the 328? ) They like it, thats why. I'll take the Dojet on a route under 200mi any day. The RJ obviously has higher cruise speeds, more seats, higher service ceiling, but whats left? The cabin sucks, hands down. I'm 5'11" and I can't even take a leak in the bathroom while standing up straight! The pax windows suck, the seats suck, Canadair should have just removed the airstairs and thrown a ladder out there ( weight savings )because I feel like thats what i'm going up when I enter that cabin, steep!
The Dojet climbs like a raped ape, rarley has overweight issues ( BOS-JFK, 4500lbs of fuel, full pax, and lots of those "international bags") it becomes a weight and balance issue rather than a MTOW issue. How many 328 crews out of BOS have done that route and see the Proxy sys fail on taxi out? So tail heavy the NLG WOW switch contacts no longer make contact. The jet takes a beating. 10+ cycles a day. Thats 10 times the engines achieve T/O pwr. 10 landings, numerous APU starts and stops, weather from the mid-west to the hot and humid south, to the hellish north east corridor. Remote parking in BOS is sometimes right next to the harbor, yup that salt water sure is good for them. I know nothing at all about Skyways, but compaire our operation to theirs, and ask yourselves if they really could just take them and make it work? Like I said, its taken 3 years to get this far.
Last edited:
TechRep
Always a JUVAT
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Posts
- 47
New 328 movies
<http://imageevent.com/techrep/dorniermovies>
For all you Turbo-Prop drivers see video #1. Would you have the brass balls to ever do this? Not in some puss.y sim either!
TechRep
<http://imageevent.com/techrep/dorniermovies>
For all you Turbo-Prop drivers see video #1. Would you have the brass balls to ever do this? Not in some puss.y sim either!
TechRep
On Your Six
Well-known member
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- 4,507
House_X
House X by Peter Eisenman
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2001
- Posts
- 489
TechRep,
AWESOME HOMEPAGE for the DORNIER!!!!
I would love to get my hands on the OFFICIAL 328-300 spec. manual (with all the "pretty" pictures). The "shriner" manual $ucks....
Boeing should have purchased the 728...what a waste...
Also, great pictures of the various systems...wish we had more people like you at ACA...
I've been looking for some technical "cut-away" drawings for the 328 jet...did anyone ever produce them... (possibly Airliners magazine)? It's very difficult to find anything about our poor neglected bird...(stickers, models etc)
AWESOME HOMEPAGE for the DORNIER!!!!
I would love to get my hands on the OFFICIAL 328-300 spec. manual (with all the "pretty" pictures). The "shriner" manual $ucks....
Boeing should have purchased the 728...what a waste...
Also, great pictures of the various systems...wish we had more people like you at ACA...
I've been looking for some technical "cut-away" drawings for the 328 jet...did anyone ever produce them... (possibly Airliners magazine)? It's very difficult to find anything about our poor neglected bird...(stickers, models etc)
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