Where will ACA D328J pilots go next?

[FurloughedAgain]

ALPA merger policy

"What will happen to the ACA pilots? Look at the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy. They should go to Comair with their seniority."

This is NOT ALPA merger/fragmentation policy. (ask the USAir/United pilots!)

ALPA's current merger policy deals with career expectations and "that no side shall receive a windfall at the expense of the other".

This was changed at the national level by the UAL pilots who were desperately afraid that some 17 year USAir 737 F/O might jump over them in a meger scenario and steal a 757 captain position.

Seniority is taken into account, of course, but it is NOT current merger policy.

I would be interested to find out if there are any labor protective provisions in the ACA contract such as the Allegheny/Mohawk LPPs which would provide that "IF X Percentage of the ACA fleet is sold or transferred then the pilots go with the airplanes".

If no such language exists then this could simply be a sale of assets and, as such, may not include labor at all.

It would most likely be in the purchaser's best interest to GET current/qualified Dornier crews... which, of course, gives the purchaser's pilot group some leverage in negotiations.

It just isn't as simple as saying "this is a merger and the pilots will go date-of-hire". ALPA does have a merger policy but -- at least so far -- the transfer of Dornier assets does not seem to fit that description.

 

[House_X]

It is my understanding that Comair has already spun-up training for the DO-Jet. Some of their instructors have already completed the ground school on the aircraft and are waiting for the word to start classes.

What will happen to the ACA pilots? Look at the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy. They should go to Comair with their seniority. I am sure that all Comair pilots support the proper application of this policy, especially after the Comair, ASA and DAL PID mess.

Sleepy,

That rumor is unsubstantiated...Comair isn't implementing any action what-so-ever on the Dornier...nor do they want them. As far as our pilot group...a rift is being formed as we speak as far as the fate of our Delta side...where WE (Dornier pilots) SHOULD GO is not up to you, ALPA, Comair or ACA.,..it will be up to each INDIVIDUAL DORNIER PILOT.

If the jet goes, each INDIVIDUAL ACA Dornier pilot will have a choice...and it seems most of us, if not all, will choose Independance.

 

[surplus1]

Fourloughed Again

You are basically correct, except I don't think that it was the UAL pilots that changed the merger policy. Unless I missed something, the current policy was rewritten in 1998 due mainly to the efforts of the Delta MEC. The rewrite had the support of UAL, NWA and USAirways at the time.

Essentially, ALPA merger policy is whatever the Executive Council says it is at any given point in time. Whomever has the political clout to sway the Executive Council will have the merger policy "interpreted" in its favor. That was no accident.

If I'm not mistaken the ACA contract does include some provisions that relate to asset transfer although I'm not certain exactly what they are. The LPP's tend to sound nice, but its a classic case of the bark being bigger than the bite.

In the event of the transfer of those assets to CMR (which I doubt), I would hope that the CMR MEC will act to ensure that the seniority of any transferring ACA pilots is fully protected. However, I think the ACA contract gives ACA pilots the option to remain at ACA if that is their desire. In view of the promise of Independence it is doubtful that many would want to come to Comair or for that matter, go anywhere else.

The General is right though, if ACA is forced to give up that flying against its will, it will be the fault of the mainline pilots. That BS clause in their contract is the very same type of clause that ultimately forced the creation of Freedom and subsequently Republic, courtesy of ALPA and the AAA MEC.

 

[jobear]

Nice to see a discusion on a topic that doesn't degenerate into my Airlines better than yours.
As to where they go who knows but I believe the choice will have to be soon. Just the logistics of training the crews is a Huge outlay,and are the gates operated by ACA at the outstations or are they DAL employees? Are the Maintenance personnel, crew schedulers and gate people in CVG staying with ACA.

Thoughts.........

Jobear

 

[On Your Six]

Is it clear that Delta would WANT to keep the DoJet? Does it earn its keep relatively well? I don't know much of the particulars, but is it possible that Delta could dump the Do-Jet (or maybe sell them to China or Skyway) for something else? I have heard rumors about a bigger airplane like the Dash 8-400 being brought on board (maybe to replace the ATR) and used out of ATL.

Do we know that Delta likes the airplane and sees a role for it going forward?


Sleepy,

Your statement for the General is a bit unfair. Yeah, I guess you would have NO PROBLEM outsourcing flying to Commutair or CHQ - no problem relinquishing some of your hard-fought scope. With 1000+ DAL pilots still on the street, further deterioration of contractual scope is likely a very touchy subject. I am sure you would defend it too if you were in the same situation...

 

[House_X]

Nice to see a discusion on a topic that doesn't degenerate into my Airlines better than yours.
As to where they go who knows but I believe the choice will have to be soon. Just the logistics of training the crews is a Huge outlay,and are the gates operated by ACA at the outstations or are they DAL employees? Are the Maintenance personnel, crew schedulers and gate people in CVG staying with ACA.

Thoughts.........

Jobear

Good questions:

The Delta outstations are DGS, Delta or Comair...most of the stations we fly to are Comair stations. ACA does not manage any outstations for Delta. At CVG, Comair runs the gates and ramp. ACA basically has flight ops, MX, and some station personnel in management postions...but basically, Comair runs the show...and they do a good job. BOS is Delta mainline. Where MX, and the station people goes is anybody's guess.

And yes...it's nice to see a civilized discussion on a hot topic...

 

[sleepy]

Is it clear that Delta would WANT to keep the DoJet? Does it earn its keep relatively well? I don't know much of the particulars, but is it possible that Delta could dump the Do-Jet (or maybe sell them to China or Skyway) for something else? I have heard rumors about a bigger airplane like the Dash 8-400 being brought on board (maybe to replace the ATR) and used out of ATL.

Do we know that Delta likes the airplane and sees a role for it going forward?


Sleepy,

Your statement for the General is a bit unfair. Yeah, I guess you would have NO PROBLEM outsourcing flying to Commutair or CHQ - no problem relinquishing some of your hard-fought scope. With 1000+ DAL pilots still on the street, further deterioration of contractual scope is likely a very touchy subject. I am sure you would defend it too if you were in the same situation...

I did not make any statement for the General. What are you talking about?

I heard it from a Comair pilot the other day that Comair instructors were already trained on the Do-jet. I don't know one way or the other, but that is what I was told.

 

[Always deferred]

As a Dornier pilot, I would like to weigh in on a couple things.

General Lee, please tell me how ACA flying the Dorniers while operating as IA would in anyway hurt your job security? It's not like they're going to put an Airbus on the CVG-DAY round. They are 2 different entities..DLC and Indy Air.

And as for the argument that "why should Delta fund a competitor", don't they already do that albeit indirectly with Skywest, and CHit, and NW and CO???
I'm sure you guys will feel lots of sympathy for your fellow ALPA pilots should Delta park the FRJ s and ACA furloughs 25% of its pilots.
And one other thing...why do you guys never wave? I mean it's not a big deal but do you really feel that superior to us?
Sorry frustrated rant over.

 

[sleepy]

They can't wave and ask for a wind check at the same time.

 

[General Lee]

Always deferred,

First of all, I am personally not against you or your ACA pilot group. I can understand your feelings----and the possible loss of jobs is worrisome---look at our loss of 1060 current pilots. I have been an advocate for our own furloughs and I would not want anyone to go through that process. That being said, I can also understand our union's (Dalpa's) decision to not help our "competitors". Yes, IA currently does not really compete with DL---but that may change when you get your 30 Airbus aircraft. As far as your analogy with Skywest and CHQ---they have not set up their own LCC to undercut fares and keep them low---resulting in extra losses for us. Can you gaurantee that IA will not ever fly their A319s to ATL or to JFK etc....? If they ever do, should we then pull the plug? I would think that Dalpa would do the same thing to Skywest or CHQ if they wanted to start up a LCC that would hurt us eventually in some way. We own Comair and ASA--and in reality they should be the ones flying all of our DCI flying--so we could keep all of the profits.

If it comes to pulling the plug on your Dojos or DCI contract---I would hope that there would be some way the Dojo pilots could keep their seats and go over to Comair or whoever gets the Dojos---so minimal jobs are lost. The tough decision will be for those Dojo pilots---to go or to stay. I would hope that many would NOT lose their jobs. But remember--I really have no idea what Dalpa will do--and I am not a negotiator. Something may be negotiated and the status quo would remain.


As far as Delta guys not waving at you---I think you are generalizing a bit. That is like saying all RJ pilots are "straight out of college" in age. Sure, there are some jerks---and I remember saying to myself in the early 90's when I was flying Brasilias the same thing, "Those Delta guys never acknowledge me when I pass them in the concourse." Now I am one---and believe it or not---I actually almost ALWAYS get their acknowlegement now---amazing. Not everyone is like that---and since '96 more civilian pilots have been hired---which gave us more of a "human " feeling. I think overall it has gotten better--but there are still those mean types out there. I personally enjoy talking to all types of pilots, and I always try to give my full attention and ask about what is happening at THEIR airline---not just mine. If you have flown on one of our jumpseats lately and I was the FO---then you know that I was mainly asking YOU about your aircraft, new routes, etc... I absolutely do wave---and I also come over and try to talk and see what is going on. I talk to a lot of your guys in CVG at the "Great Steak Escape" between flights---and I have even been invited to sit down with some of your guys and they told me about the FRJ---and their 7 leg days.... As I have said before--I feel lucky to have this job and to be still flying, and I do not have a superiority complex. But, I still have an opinion and I display it often on this board. I hope this clears this issue up a bit. Take care.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GogglesPisano]

In response to a question or two, it's 40%. If 40% of the operation goes, the Company must arrange for the pilots to obtain employment with the aircraft that are sold. The DoJets account for about 20% of our fleet.

If the contract is followed, and the DoJets go, ACA will have to furlough from the bottom of the list (CRJ, DoJet and J41 FO's)

 

[General Lee]

Well, maybe the company getting the Dojos would like to have some experienced Dojo pilots along with the jets.....maybe---maybe not...I hope job losses are minimal if anything like that happens....

Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[FlyingSig]

General Lee, please tell me how ACA flying the Dorniers while operating as IA would in anyway hurt your job security? It's not like they're going to put an Airbus on the CVG-DAY round. They are 2 different entities..DLC and Indy Air.

JMO - sorry I'm not the general - but Delta paying a company for a codeshare that subsadises an upstart company that takes revenue away from Delta hurts Delta, Delta pilots, and every employee under the Delta umbrella.

You guys want to start a new airline, great... good luck ... heck, I might even apply there someday if it works out - but in the meantime, start that new airline with your own money.

 

[Nindiri]

But would the little bit of revenue going to ACA hurt Delta more than the cost of operating the Dojets at another DCI carrier?

 

[FlyingSig]

But would the little bit of revenue going to ACA hurt Delta more than the cost of operating the Dojets at another DCI carrier?

I personally think it would be cost neutral to put the airframes at another carrier... I'm shooting from the hip and don't have any supporting documents in front of me, but the aircraft are Delta's once the ACA contract is terminated. I'm sure any costs associated with training/upstart will be structured in how the new carrier gets paid by Delta (not to mention yet another "one time charge" to help with the taxes). Delta's network and fleet is large enough that the rest of DCI - and heaven forbid - mainline - could easily absorb the capacity of 30 or so 32 seat jets without much service interuption. Such costs are defined and mostly fixed.

On the other side of the coin, every dollar that goes out of Delta's pocket and spent getting new passengers at independence is an unaccountable lost revenue for as long as IA is in existance. It's not a "little bit" of revenue unless only a "few" passengers try IA once and then go back to Delta. Again, nothing wrong with competition - it's the American way. But right now Delta dollars are being spent on a product that does not exist and will in no way ever benefit Delta. Once IA starts operating - using Delta dollars to market and attact new customers, some of which will probably be Delta customers - will cause far more damage over the long run if IA is successful. AirTran is a perfect example of why Delta should not help IA get started. You think the short term profit of selling DC-9's outweighed the lost revenue in the ATL market?

Again, my remarks at not a knock at the new airline or it's concept. I just beleive anyone with a vested interest in the long term health of Delta should agree that the ACA contract should be terminated in accordance with the Delta Pilot's working agreement once greater then 70 seat aircraft are put into service.

 

[House_X]

JMO - sorry I'm not the general - but Delta paying a company for a codeshare that subsadises an upstart company that takes revenue away from Delta hurts Delta, Delta pilots, and every employee under the Delta umbrella.

You guys want to start a new airline, great... good luck ... heck, I might even apply there someday if it works out - but in the meantime, start that new airline with your own money.

I agree, there is no way Delta will fund a competitor. I've been hearing from our side that we cannot hurt Delta by starting an LLC and flying Delta Connection at the same time. I guess they don't have Economics 101 at "Riddle". I think many are in denial and don't want to fathom the Dorniers being yanked from under us.

 

[Heavy Set]

I think General's point is that Delta won't fund a potential direct competitor... I don't know many non-airline companies that fund potential direct competitors either...

 

[SaladShooter]

How the end game is going to be played is anyones guess. Who knows if DALPA will force DAL to eat the Do's. That possibility is as good as ACA not getting 3 straight months of 95.5 completion factor off the FRJ's and DAL forcing ACA to eat the airplanes. The only thing I do know is that somebody is going to be stuck with those airplanes and I sure hope beyond all hope that it is not ACA, at least not in the near future. That would be a blood bath and would not be good for the start of I Air.

 

[TechRep]

ACA/Midwest Express Fleet Transfer (rumo

My inside sources within ACA/Midwest Express tell me that all Delta Connection Dornier 328JETS operated by ACA will be sold to Midwest Express. Midwest Express will assume the lease and maintenance contracts and agree in interest to assume control of all ACA 328JET operated aircraft. Pratt & Whitney has assured Midwest Express, before the filling, that the P&W306B, 1st and 2nd stage turbine blade erosion abnormality will be addressed during engine overhaul.

Reduced Power Take Off has also been tentatively approved by AvCraft, which will further improve the reliability of the turbine blades. If I were an ACA Delta Connection 328JET Crewmember I would begin to ask questions.

TechRep

 

[General Lee]

There you go....