When will the MEM pilots 'get it'???

[sandman2122]

So Echopapa, are you flying draft and ava?

 

[Purpledriver]

1. Not flying overtime has not helped UPS in the pace or effectiveness of their negotiations, why would it help us?

UPS, a year ahead of us in contract negotiations, has not flown draft since management announced that they would furlough 50 pilots about three years ago. I don't see their negotiations benefiting from this decision in either pace or effectiveness.

Why?

UPS, like FedEx, has an amazing amount of slop in their system. Look at your loads next time you fly. If a flight to SYR cancells for lack of pilots, the ROC flight has plenty of room....and that crew then gets the pleasure of being involuntarily assigned an additional leg, after showtime, thereby cutting their crewrest from 12 hours to 9. Think about it ...there are probably 10 or more flights to the LA basin ever day....and they are not all full...you can lose one or more and still not lose any revenue. We have tons of reserve, airport standbys, sweep flights, hotel standbys and half full planes that can be re-routed.

2. The union has not taken a position on this matter.

As I see it there are only two reasons. First, it could be interpreted as an illegal job action. Or second, it is not helpful to our negotiations at this time.

3. The union speaks clearlY.

They don't want us to fly disputed pairings....that could not be more clear. The union has said to fly the contract...we fly the contract.

I CHALLANGE ANYONE TO PROVIDE CONCRETE UNION GUIDANCE SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING OVERTIME FLYING.

4. To stop flying overtime now will take away a negotiating tool when it is legal and most effective.

If we implement a word of mouth campaign slowly and haphazardly to stop extra flying, the company will time to effectively modify its manning or schedules to cope with the change.

A better alternative is, once released into self help, for the union to take an offical position to stop overtime and implement it on a specific day. The more dependant the company is on overtime flying now the more effective it will be for us when it is legal to take away later.


5. Let cool heads and logic prevail.

As far as I am aware, the company has not engaged in any illegal job actions. They have not fired pilots indiscrimenately, failed union leaders on their annual checkrides or taken any other actions barred by the RLA.

Every email I have recived about negotiations from our union point to coninuing, yet slow, progress.

We as union members have an equally important requirement to both follow the law and our union leadership.

This is a long frustrating process, avoid the temptation to take action from "side" groups or "rouge" attempts to influence negotionations. Don't let your emotions make you an easy target by advocating an illegal job action that will potentially put your job and career in jeapordy.

I am sure this will generate a lot of "emotional" personal attacks about greed....but please look above and see that every logical argument raised is not about money or personal gain....its about whats best for us as a whole.

If you've been around long enough to land a job here, you've got to have enough brains to understand that the union can't come right out and say don't fly draft at this point. That would be illegal. They have said to take a look at every decision you make about work and ask yourself if that decision supports the union. If that statement isn't clear enough for you, this is a waste of time.

Fly your line, support the company (it's a great comany) by flying 100% of your line, support the union by flying 100% of your line, and let the union bring us a contract to vote on.

 

[Echopapa]

If you've been around long enough to land a job here, you've got to have enough brains to understand that the union can't come right out and say don't fly draft at this point. That would be illegal. They have said to take a look at every decision you make about work and ask yourself if that decision supports the union. If that statement isn't clear enough for you, this is a waste of time.

Fly your line, support the company (it's a great comany) by flying 100% of your line, support the union by flying 100% of your line, and let the union bring us a contract to vote on.

and 100 percent emotion.

I interpreted the union email very differently. What I read was they don't wan't individuals to form split groups, to start underground movements, or to engage in emotional and potentially illegal flight behavior. Fly the contract, fly legal, fly safe. Period.

If the union can't advocate an action because its potentially illegal what makes you think that its legal for you to do so?

All it would take is one flight with you pressuring a crew member who is on draft for you to lose your job. Or even better, start opening your mouth about not flying draft on the crew bus and have the wrong guy listening. Then instead of worrying about negotiating our contract our union has to try and bail your a$$ out and then explain to the NMB why our membership is acting unlawfully.

You may call me paranoid...and perhaps I am...but I fully expect that we are being watched and tracked very closely to see if we have changed our normal behavior as a result of contract negotions....taxi speed, frequency of mx writeups, number of sick calls...you name it...

 

[PurpleTail]

1. Not flying overtime has not helped UPS in the pace or effectiveness of their negotiations, why would it help us?

UPS, a year ahead of us in contract negotiations, has not flown draft since management announced that they would furlough 50 pilots about three years ago. I don't see their negotiations benefiting from this decision in either pace or effectiveness.

Why?

UPS, like FedEx, has an amazing amount of slop in their system. Look at your loads next time you fly. If a flight to SYR cancells for lack of pilots, the ROC flight has plenty of room....and that crew then gets the pleasure of being involuntarily assigned an additional leg, after showtime, thereby cutting their crewrest from 12 hours to 9. Think about it ...there are probably 10 or more flights to the LA basin ever day....and they are not all full...you can lose one or more and still not lose any revenue. We have tons of reserve, airport standbys, sweep flights, hotel standbys and half full planes that can be re-routed.

2. The union has not taken a position on this matter.

As I see it there are only two reasons. First, it could be interpreted as an illegal job action. Or second, it is not helpful to our negotiations at this time.

3. The union speaks clearlY.

They don't want us to fly disputed pairings....that could not be more clear. The union has said to fly the contract...we fly the contract.

I CHALLANGE ANYONE TO PROVIDE CONCRETE UNION GUIDANCE SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING OVERTIME FLYING.

Echo, I'm sorry but I TOTALLY disagree with you.

First, you can not compare FedEx and UPS. Yes we are in the same business but two totally different companies as far as air fleet size (FDX twice as big) and union unity. UPS has not grown AT ALL over the last 3 years, we are busting at the seams with growth and their union and pilot group is severely fractured and we are very unified. So in my opinion you are comparing apples to oranges.

Second, go back and read Wes Reed's email dated May 17th and also the one sent by the entire MEC dated May 26th. I SPECIFICALLY challenge you to think long and hard at the message that are so desparately trying to get across to you and all of us. If you have deleted the emails I have them saved and would be more than happy to forward them to you, just PM me.

Time to wake up people.

 

[Huck]

You can check my historical behavior all you want. I don't do draft or go over my BLG. Haven't since the beginning.

I ask enough of my wife. MOST captains I've flown with lately are divorced. I got to keep her happy....

 

[Purpledriver]

and 100 percent emotion.

I interpreted the union email very differently. What I read was they don't wan't individuals to form split groups, to start underground movements, or to engage in emotional and potentially illegal flight behavior. Fly the contract, fly legal, fly safe. Period.

If the union can't advocate an action because its potentially illegal what makes you think that its legal for you to do so?

All it would take is one flight with you pressuring a crew member who is on draft for you to lose your job. Or even better, start opening your mouth about not flying draft on the crew bus and have the wrong guy listening. Then instead of worrying about negotiating our contract our union has to try and bail your a$$ out and then explain to the NMB why our membership is acting unlawfully.

You may call me paranoid...and perhaps I am...but I fully expect that we are being watched and tracked very closely to see if we have changed our normal behavior as a result of contract negotions....taxi speed, frequency of mx writeups, number of sick calls...you name it...

There is nothing illegal about flying 100% of your company awarded line and then going home on your days off. I agree with you about some people that need to keep their mouth shut on the bus and other public places and I also agree that some management type is reading this as well.....for his or her benefit, I don't support any illegal actions....however flying my awarded line is 100% legal and it is what is right.

 

[Spur]

If you've been around long enough to land a job here, you've got to have enough brains to understand that the union can't come right out and say don't fly draft at this point. That would be illegal.

If you've been around long enough you should know that the union doesnt have to endorse an illegal job action to be held accountable for it. All it takes is a statistical decrease in VLT and DRF, and a copy of a few threads from this and other boards, and we could easily have a federal injuction placed against us (ala DALPA).

Do what you want to do, just stop posting about it...

 

[FoxHunter]

If you've been around long enough you should know that the union doesnt have to endorse an illegal job action to be held accountable for it. All it takes is a statistical decrease in VLT and DRF, and a copy of a few threads from this and other boards, and we could easily have a federal injuction placed against us (ala DALPA).

Do what you want to do, just stop posting about it...

too late

 

[Spur]

I'm curious...how could pilots not accepting flying on days off be considered an illegal job action? It's not a sick-out, or wildcat strike, it's just flying by the rights you currently have in your Pilot Agreement.

It is crazy, but the 11th circuit coupled a statistical decrease in extra flying by delta pilots with evidence of pressure from some pilots (email specifically, but other evidence may have been included) in rendering its injuction. We are not under the 11th so it would be a new case for us, with an opportunity to alter the result. I think a decrease in VLT/DRF could be explained by other factors in court, but the more evidence accumulated by the company that pilot pressure is involved, the more likely an unwelcomed decision.

Oh, and before I get fragged for an alternate point of view...

Zero DRF
Zero VLT
Since DOH.

 

[Purpled]

It is crazy, but the 11th circuit coupled a statistical decrease in extra flying by delta pilots with evidence of pressure from some pilots (email specifically, but other evidence may have been included) in rendering its injuction. We are not under the 11th so it would be a new case for us, with an opportunity to alter the result. I think a decrease in VLT/DRF could be explained by other factors in court, but the more evidence accumulated by the company that pilot pressure is involved, the more likely an unwelcomed decision.

Oh, and before I get fragged for an alternate point of view...

Zero DRF
Zero VLT
Since DOH.

I also think it would depend on the method of motivation. If you were telling the guys on the bus, 'yeah, stick it too 'em and work less,' then you have a problem. If you're kid broke his leg and you needed to stay home more then you're probably OK. Oh yeah, and don't harrass or encourage others to do the former above.

I doubt the Co. would go to court and say, 'a guy named sandman or echopapa on flightinfo said not to,' but if it got ugly around the hub I'm sure they'd not hesitate to push the issue legally. That would really change everything for the worse, so I think it would be a last resort.