When is the PinnaColaba list effective?

[bri5150]

I see your point sinkrate, but all the minimum 541 9E captains are above me...Until there is attrition of course. I guess I won't believe any of this until my ass is sitting in the left seat of a 200. Until then, I will expect the worst because that is what has happened to me most of the time in the past 6.5 years here.

 

[xjgearbtch]

I'm not so sure about that. Read point 5 in the 'Conditions and Restrictions' carefully. If I am reading this correctly Displacements will be done with the same ratio as vacancy awards.

If an SF3 pilot is diplaced out of his position,
and there are fewer than 100 former Mesaba pilots holding CRJ CA
and there are more than 541 former PCL pilots holding CRJ CA

The SF3 pilot will displace the most junior PCL CA, without regard to seniority. In this case the SF3 pilot can displace some one senior to him on the ISL. If this is due to a reduction in staffing the company may not have the option to absorb the position without violating the Agreement.

This was something that confused many at the union meeting. You have this incorrect. The Mesaba SAAB Pilot will displace one of the 100 Mesaba Pilots on 200, not one of the 541 pilots on the PCL side. The only scenario in which a PCL pilot will lose their position is if there are 100 Mesaba Pilots, 542 PCL pilots and the Pilot 542 is junior to displaced SAAB Pilot. No Mesaba pilot can displace the 541 CRJ 200 Captains at PCL, no matter how junior they (the PCL pilot) are!!!!!! The SAAB pilot can displace Mesaba pilots only. This is in effect for 5 years.

 

[sinkrate]

This was something that confused many at the union meeting. You have this incorrect. The Mesaba SAAB Pilot will displace one of the 100 Mesaba Pilots on 200, not one of the 541 pilots on the PCL side. The only scenario in which a PCL pilot will lose their position is if there are 100 Mesaba Pilots, 542 PCL pilots and the Pilot 542 is junior to displaced SAAB Pilot. No Mesaba pilot can displace the 541 CRJ 200 Captains at PCL, no matter how junior they (the PCL pilot) are!!!!!! The SAAB pilot can displace Mesaba pilots only. This is in effect for 5 years.

This wouldn't be the first time I've seen Union reps not understand what a lawyer said, or what written language says. In fact, I've seen it many times on both counts. You detail one scenario where it could happen. Keep in mind there are many more PCL CA's than the minimum of 541. My calculus is if there is a base 'realignment' or down sizing we are going to see it happen.

 

[higney85]

This wouldn't be the first time I've seen Union reps not understand what a lawyer said, or what written language says. In fact, I've seen it many times on both counts. You detail one scenario where it could happen. Keep in mind there are many more PCL CA's than the minimum of 541. My calculus is if there is a base 'realignment' or down sizing we are going to see it happen.

Bingo. Step away from "sides" and read the language as an overall issue. Ratios are in play overall. 9E has more than the quota, XJ will be at or above by the time the displacement comes into play. Ratios/quota/conditions and restrictions will apply. Read them as if they don't apply to you, then see where you stand on the second time through. Some will be unaffected, others (like myself) will be riding the bubble.

 

[xjgearbtch]

This wouldn't be the first time I've seen Union reps not understand what a lawyer said, or what written language says. In fact, I've seen it many times on both counts. You detail one scenario where it could happen. Keep in mind there are many more PCL CA's than the minimum of 541. My calculus is if there is a base 'realignment' or down sizing we are going to see it happen.

You misunderstood me, our union reps clarified what you had incorrectly stated. Mesaba cannot displace the 541 PCL pilots from their captain positions. That is protected for 5 years no matter what. Think of it this way if all 200 flying were to go away next year, no PCL pilot can displace the 275(don't remember the exact number) Mesaba pilot. No matter how senior they are.

 

[bri5150]

The ratios to fill a vacancy only come into effect if two of the airlines haven't filled the minimum amount they should have in the position the vacancy is filling. For example, if Pinnacle had less than 541 200 captains and Mesaba had less than 100, then the ratio that is given in the SLI award is used to fill the positions until either Pinnacle or Mesaba have their minimum postions filled. At that point, all the positions would go to the airline that isn't filled yet. Once both are filled, then it is open to anyone on the list with the seniority to hold it.

 

[sinkrate]

It is not the 541 PCL CA's I'm talking about. It is CA's 542 and lower. PCL has about 600 CA's now. Those PCL CA's can be displaced by a Mesaba pilot junior to them, if the cards fall right. And if there is a big move of equipment and crews from one domicile to another the odds of the cards falling right increases significantly. Now, Delta is not finished moving their flying around, or shrinking the 200 fleet. They are notorious for moving flying and equipment around on a whim. Do you really think all the CRJ's are going to be in the same domiciles in 5 years?

 

[bri5150]

I fear in 5 years, they will be mostly on their way out. You know at the very least they will be threatened as we go into contract negotiations again. I have flown in to DTW a couple times this week and dang there are a lot of 200's out there, all lined up in a row. When I see that, I just have to wonder whose idea it was to buy 20 gazillion of those things and think it was a good decision. I understand fuel was lower at that point, but isn't everything supposed to be done in moderation?

 

[sinkrate]

Which brings us back to the original point. By managements own admision Mesaba, like most shrinking carriers, was over staffed and PCL was understaffed at the time the Bloch took the snapshot. A very good case can be made the that this will result in a windfall for Mesaba pilots and that the 'ratio' should have used AC, and not pilots, in the fleet.

 

[gojo]

Which brings us back to the original point. By managements own admision Mesaba, like most shrinking carriers, was over staffed and PCL was understaffed at the time the Bloch took the snapshot. A very good case can be made the that this will result in a windfall for Mesaba pilots and that the 'ratio' should have used AC, and not pilots, in the fleet.

Well, I would hardly call that a windfall. Maybe, and I use that word lightly, it will just get us closer to evening things out. I would say Colgan got a windfall in all areas. I am now 40 numbers junior to a friend that was hired at Colgan 2 1/2 years after me. How is that fair and equitable? I lost 2 1/2 years of seniority, 2% relative seniority, obtained only modest gains in the new contract, and lost the ability to flow to Delta

 

[bri5150]

Which brings us back to the original point. By managements own admision Mesaba, like most shrinking carriers, was over staffed and PCL was understaffed at the time the Bloch took the snapshot. A very good case can be made the that this will result in a windfall for Mesaba pilots and that the 'ratio' should have used AC, and not pilots, in the fleet.

"Windfall" for Mesaba pilots? /sigh. That word might be a bit overused. How can an alleged discrepency of less than 100 fence positions create a "windfall" for Mesaba pilots? Also, how is a Mesaba pilot getting a 200 position they would have held within a year anyways a windfall?

You can talk about Saab displacements all you want, but we have 14 active for Delta right now, and apparently we aren't too overstaffed because about 50% of my trips on reserve end up with me in DTW, MEM, ATL, or LGA when I am based in MSP. If we are so overstaffed, not only would I be sitting at home, but I wouldn't have to cover other base's trips because they should have people sitting at home as well.

 

[bri5150]

Well, I would hardly call that a windfall. Maybe, and I use that word lightly, it will just get us closer to evening things out. I would say Colgan got a windfall in all areas. I am now 40 numbers junior to a friend that was hired at Colgan 2 1/2 years after me. How is that fair and equitable? I lost 2 1/2 years of seniority, 2% relative seniority, obtained only modest gains in the new contract, and lost the ability to flow to Delta

No, it isn't fair and equitable. You got a windfall man...come on. :beer:

 

[CptMurf]

Which brings us back to the original point. By managements own admision Mesaba, like most shrinking carriers, was over staffed and PCL was understaffed at the time the Bloch took the snapshot. A very good case can be made the that this will result in a windfall for Mesaba pilots and that the 'ratio' should have used AC, and not pilots, in the fleet.

Definitely NOT a "windfall" for XJ. As the OP mentioned, if anything, this brings us to more equal. 9L felt their own pain. Their pre merger list was essentially split in half and the bottom half integrated at the VERY bottom of the combined list. Status/Category, although fair for a group as a whole, is harsh to individuals. Especially if they are on a cusp. As a whole, each list had gains and losses. When compared to each other lists, it probably was fair. But inside each list there were individuals that saw large gains or losses. This is where Status/Category becomes unfair. It is no more evident than in hiring booms, where a person fell into Group I only because he was hired 6 months or so over a person that fell in Group III (and over 800 numbers behind the first individual).

 

[CptMurf]

DOH would have been a much more "fair" integration method, both as a individual and as a whole. As I re-read Bloch's decision, I keep thinking he recognized this too. He mentions it several times. I think the wait was because he changed his methodology after the DOH debacle to try to eliminate the discussion. If this was the case, we all shot ourselves in the foot. 9E for the DOH changes, 9L for discovering it and bringing it up, and XJ for pushing the issue so hard. We may have been our own worst enemy.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Windfall for Mesaba? You kidding me?
As a close to bottom 200 Capt I received no improvement from the contract.
From the SLI I have nearly all the 9e 200 and 9l 'Q' Captains above me. At 8 years with close to 600 pilots above me with much less seniority.

Yep I feel the windfall.

I am displacement fodder. While someone is a 200 Capt with much less longevity than me, I stand a real possibility of being an FO. Again whoo!!!

 

[Flyer1015]

You can talk about Saab displacements all you want, but we have 14 active for Delta right now

Only 14 active at Delta? What happened to rest? 7 at LGA for US Air? And the others?

 

[Flyer1015]

DOH would have been a much more "fair" integration method, both as a individual and as a whole. As I re-read Bloch's decision, I keep thinking he recognized this too. He mentions it several times. I think the wait was because he changed his methodology after the DOH debacle to try to eliminate the discussion. If this was the case, we all shot ourselves in the foot. 9E for the DOH changes, 9L for discovering it and bringing it up, and XJ for pushing the issue so hard. We may have been our own worst enemy.

Agreed. I saw several mentions of DOH, but it almost seemed he had to stray away from it due the to the DOH issue brought up (initially) by Mesaba. He recognized both 9E and XJ brought up valid points, and was unable to conclude on the topic. He's left it for us or the ALPA rulemakers to figure the issue out.

 

[bri5150]

Only 14 active at Delta? What happened to rest? 7 at LGA for US Air? And the others?

That has been my point most of the time. The crap had already hit the fan for the most part (with the Saabs), and the sky hadn't fallen.

 

[CptMurf]

I guess it's effective now. 1st Award with pilots from all 3 carriers moving around.

 

[RJLoser]

Where are you seeing the 11-07 award murph? Not on flypinnacle. Can you pm it?