When is the PinnaColaba list effective?

[xjhawk]

having finished way ahead of the pack only to be stopped before the finished line by the race official to bend me over while 550 crossed the finish line ahead of me. I am tired, I had the will to fight but my running union lacks the will to fight and are happy with their 1,2 finish and are liking their spot on the podeum

 

[xjhawk]

No, Mesaba's union has already said they will not challenge it-even though during one of the "this is what happened" meetings their first slide was ALPA's merger policy-which is apparently "not defined" and does not pertain to all union pilots. Weird....I bet if all the senior guys were screwed on half their seniority they would be fighting this travesty. As it is I am just bitter at ALPA for this mess (no defined rules for a merger? REALLY?) and if they do define them, they are PU$$ie willows for not stopping this. ANd I will be trying my hardest to leave this place. How many of you colgan Q pilots want to bid MSp?

 

[Flyer1015]

Actually, I'm thinking how bad it could get if there are vacancies that are filled outside of the ISL. XJ would have serious grounds for a grievance in this. I have no idea how the award would be filled. Probably not and just be delayed, and that's fine. Just not an award without honoring it.

Yeah. That will go well. "They took our jobs!" - A Mesaba pilot regarding a Pinnacle upgrade spot.

 

[Flyer1015]

I agree...mostly. Still stuck on this though. The process agreement laid out how vacancies would be handled throughout the merger, both before and after the ISL. Now it's out, and so is a vacancy. The process agreement should be followed, just as agreed upon. The fact that there is not a definitive date for the 60 day window, or the 5 year fences, should not matter. That date can be argued for, well... 52 or so more days with no consequences. The vacancy is out and closes soon. If the process agreement is not followed than there are individuals that will be awarded positions out of seniority order. Now ALPA does own the list, and maybe they haven't "released" it to management, but management implies that it is going to fill positions soon. They should be filled by the pilots in ISL order.

Patience I have, I don't care if the award is delayed or cancelled. I just have issues if our MECs allow it to be awarded out of seniority order. I don't subscribe to an idea of, "let them have this one" or "we'll work out the details later" the process is already defined an in place.

Too bad. Congrats to the newly awarded 13 Pinnacle upgrade Captains. They deserve it.

 

[CptMurf]

Yeah. That will go well. "They took our jobs!" - A Mesaba pilot regarding a Pinnacle upgrade spot.

We are combined now buddy. This comes down to honoring contracts, LOAs, and our combined union doing the right thing. Honestly, if there was a 200 vacancy that was just awarded, I knew nothing about it. My last posts were about the Q400/Sf340 vacancy that just opened. But now I'll be calling my reps about a 200 award.

Hope you were one of the 13.

 

[higney85]

Murph- I actually agree with you. For too long it has always been "ok, just give em some slack"... That's not what is needed. What I am saying is the fact that the vacancies now and going forward need to be done correctly. If a vacancy needs to be cancelled or extended in order for "right and wrong" to be known (read: CLARIFIED) so be it. I am not happy with some parts of the award (just as everyone else), but it is binding and the way it's going to be regardless. This needs to be done right the first time, if it takes a week or two to sort it out- I'm OK with that. Rushing to simply "get it done" isn't acceptable.

You can't rush success.

 

[CptMurf]

Murph- I actually agree with you. For too long it has always been "ok, just give em some slack"... That's not what is needed. What I am saying is the fact that the vacancies now and going forward need to be done correctly. If a vacancy needs to be cancelled or extended in order for "right and wrong" to be known (read: CLARIFIED) so be it. I am not happy with some parts of the award (just as everyone else), but it is binding and the way it's going to be regardless. This needs to be done right the first time, if it takes a week or two to sort it out- I'm OK with that. Rushing to simply "get it done" isn't acceptable.

You can't rush success.

I agree completely. BTW this does not affect me personally (as stated in previous thread, I'm old. And hold 900CA comfortably), I just want to see it done correctly and move forward. I am actually looking forward to flying with you guys.

 

[higney85]

I am actually looking forward to flying with you guys.

I'd say the same, but don't want to lose my left seat...

 

[Flyer1015]

We are combined now buddy. This comes down to honoring contracts, LOAs, and our combined union doing the right thing. Honestly, if there was a 200 vacancy that was just awarded, I knew nothing about it. My last posts were about the Q400/Sf340 vacancy that just opened. But now I'll be calling my reps about a 200 award.

Hope you were one of the 13.

Actually it was 14, and I wasn't one of them. The vacancy for this particular choice closed prior to the ISL coming out, therefore, it was awarded to Pinnacle pilots only. Vacancy closed June 10th at 8am.

And FYI, posts like the "hope you were one of the 13" show me that there will not be any internal unity once we do merge for a period of 5 years. I expect ugliness once people start jumping over more senior people to upgrade because of certain fenced protections. Why else would you say "hope you were one of the 13" unless you wanted to intentionally screw me? When have I wanted to screw you out of a CR9 captain position?

 

[CptMurf]

Actually it was 14, and I wasn't one of them. The vacancy for this particular choice closed prior to the ISL coming out, therefore, it was awarded to Pinnacle pilots only. Vacancy closed June 10th at 8am.

And FYI, posts like the "hope you were one of the 13" show me that there will not be any internal unity once we do merge for a period of 5 years. I expect ugliness once people start jumping over more senior people to upgrade because of certain fenced protections. Why else would you say "hope you were one of the 13" unless you wanted to intentionally screw me? When have I wanted to screw you out of a CR9 captain position?

I said I hoped you were one if them, because of the other thread you started about PIC time. I read that thread as you were close to upgrading. But it seems you are paranoid that we and specifically me, are going to treat you badly. Ain't going to happen. I carry no bad feeling towards anyone that I have debated here. Tell you what, I'll buy your beer if why fly together. ::Beer::

 

[mesaba13]

You never wanted our jobs huh FLYER1015?

"I used to care about Mesaba, but know, with their arrogant attitude, I'm actually looking forward to the big red stapler from Office Space. "

Unbelieveable how much you think you know about this industry and come to find out you don't even have ATP mins.

Enjoy the next 2 years in the right seat, or better yet why don't you make everyone happy and just move on.

 

[higney85]

Darn, I'm out of popcorn..

 

[Flyer1015]

You never wanted our jobs huh FLYER1015?

"I used to care about Mesaba, but know, with their arrogant attitude, I'm actually looking forward to the big red stapler from Office Space. "

Unbelieveable how much you think you know about this industry and come to find out you don't even have ATP mins.

Enjoy the next 2 years in the right seat, or better yet why don't you make everyone happy and just move on.

That quote was an out of frustration remark, with no real life value to it since no one has been stapled in recent arbitrated awards. I don't want Mesaba jobs. Heck, I was against this merger in the first place, but we pilots dont have any say. I know enough about this industry to know that Pinnacle FOs (and junior captains - that includes you higney85, so put your popcorn down) have been hosed on our Captain fence protections. Higney85, unless you're in the top 541 Captains system-wide at Pinnacle, I'd brace for a forced displacement into the right seat as all the Saabs are parked and people like bri5150 and Seven are forced to bid Captain jet seats.

And yes, I'm trying to move on. A few foreign airlines are having roadshows in the US, so obtaining an ATP on my own may prove worth it.

 

[bri5150]

That quote was an out of frustration remark, with no real life value to it since no one has been stapled in recent arbitrated awards. I don't want Mesaba jobs. Heck, I was against this merger in the first place, but we pilots dont have any say. I know enough about this industry to know that Pinnacle FOs (and junior captains - that includes you higney85, so put your popcorn down) have been hosed on our Captain fence protections. Higney85, unless you're in the top 541 Captains system-wide at Pinnacle, I'd brace for a forced displacement into the right seat as all the Saabs are parked and people like bri5150 and Seven are forced to bid Captain jet seats.

And yes, I'm trying to move on. A few foreign airlines are having roadshows in the US, so obtaining an ATP on my own may prove worth it.

In order to displace anyone, I have to be senior to them. I was placed behind the all the "200 captains", so the only ones I would even have a chance of displacing are the few below me. I guess that was the 541 number I guess...I hope the master list with people's equipment on it comes out soon. I am really interested in seeing what the guys around me are on so I can figure out where I will take a seat when the music stops. Flyer, if it's any consolation, I truly don't think I will be able to hold a jet captain spot.

 

[higney85]

In order to displace anyone, I have to be senior to them. I was placed behind the all the "200 captains", so the only ones I would even have a chance of displacing are the few below me. I guess that was the 541 number I guess...I hope the master list with people's equipment on it comes out soon. I am really interested in seeing what the guys around me are on so I can figure out where I will take a seat when the music stops. Flyer, if it's any consolation, I truly don't think I will be able to hold a jet captain spot.

You will be (for your case) pleasantly surprised. I came out as the top part of FO's on the sli, but I am a junior CA. There are now a good number junior to me that are also currently (or presently in upgrade) CA's. Time will tell on displacements/absorption due to the saabs. My concern is also the Saab displacements so we are in the same boat when this family reunion actually starts.

 

[gojo]

In order to displace anyone, I have to be senior to them. I was placed behind the all the "200 captains", so the only ones I would even have a chance of displacing are the few below me. I guess that was the 541 number I guess...I hope the master list with people's equipment on it comes out soon. I am really interested in seeing what the guys around me are on so I can figure out where I will take a seat when the music stops. Flyer, if it's any consolation, I truly don't think I will be able to hold a jet captain spot.

I think you will. did you go to a road show? we are not below all jet captains. In fact there are about 90 below us. Higney is one of them.

 

[bri5150]

Yeah, but there are 90 guys above me that aren't in jets either. I am sure some won't go, but who knows? I guess we will find out in the next 6-9 months or sooner.

 

[Flyer1015]

bri, there are plenty of Pinnalce guys above the 541 number that fell in category 2. Many CRJ-200 Captains are below you, and I'd venture to say we have 600+ CRJ-200 Captains at 9E. We can lose it all the way to 541 positions. As already mentioned above bri, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. The rest of us Pinnacle FOs and junior Pinnacle Captains are pretty much in the "hosed" category.

 

[higney85]

bri, there are plenty of Pinnalce guys above the 541 number that fell in category 2. Many CRJ-200 Captains are below you, and I'd venture to say we have 600+ CRJ-200 Captains at 9E. We can lose it all the way to 541 positions. As already mentioned above bri, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. The rest of us Pinnacle FOs and junior Pinnacle Captains are pretty much in the "hosed" category.

Not necessarily. It's a quota, not a fence. The issue of upgrades and displacements are different issues. For upgrades it is a ratio when filling vacancies once the quota is reached (it's a min for said equipment). So while our guys feel "they get our upgrades" the mesaba and colgan guys farther down the list have a potential to upgrade as they planned as well. With the hiring the company is doing and the guys/gals leaving (already- before the supposed "wave") these quotas will quickly become ratios. Looking at the numbers and talking to our merger guys it doesn't appear, on paper, to be something that will impact all 3 groups for 5 years.

The displacements are different in that they may come at a considerably quicker and more short term rate. In the event that there is the massive XJ Saab displacement in the near future (reality) the atmosphere of bumping becomes very possible. For example, if Bri is senior to me and is displaced he can bid the -200. If he is senior to anyone on the -200 in that base he can have it. In DTW he WOULD have it over me being senior to me while I am on the equip in that base. It now becomes the issue of the company either absorbing the extra CA (me) or bumping me out to my next pref that I can hold. There are 2 significant issues with the bump in relation to the company. 1- there is a FULL training cycle for the new CA (Bri). In this case it would be MANY CA's in the displacment and although the saabs would already be gone the CA's going to new equip are now "lost" on the line for at least a couple months while training. 2- If I am displaced I would also be in training too. There is a trickle down effect that would in essence remove MORE pilots from the line for months and leave a short situation with a ratio of more pilots to A/C. Being that we are so short now and expecting movement it would take another economic storm for the company NOT to simply absorb. While this example is with just Bri and I, there are potentially HUNDREDS of pilots who would move around in secondaries. That is a significant cost to the company, and a potential staffing crisis. A displacement is a threat to all (it's never looked at as a "good" thing to see posted), but I don't see the company taking it lightly with 36 crew positions and 3000 pilots.

Without the hard numbers and not being able to predict the future, it's hard to make factual based statements on the entire situation. What you can say is in the event of the Saab CA's being displaced at once the next 2-3 months for them in training could very well cover attrition during the time period or simply allow the company to be ahead of the staffing model. That isn't necessarily a bad thing and also something that most regionals haven't had in a long time, if ever. Look at the current situation at almost all carriers- they are short. Trying to push everyone backwards, when the top positions are being vacated only leaves a huge gap that will bite back violently.

That's enough for my sunday morning soap box, I think the point(s) are made. Until we see the vacancies an displacements everyone seems to think more negative than positive. We can't change the outcome. Update your standing bid and wait for the dominos to fall.

 

[sinkrate]

In order to displace anyone, I have to be senior to them.

I'm not so sure about that. Read point 5 in the 'Conditions and Restrictions' carefully. If I am reading this correctly Displacements will be done with the same ratio as vacancy awards.

If an SF3 pilot is diplaced out of his position,
and there are fewer than 100 former Mesaba pilots holding CRJ CA
and there are more than 541 former PCL pilots holding CRJ CA

The SF3 pilot will displace the most junior PCL CA, without regard to seniority. In this case the SF3 pilot can displace some one senior to him on the ISL. If this is due to a reduction in staffing the company may not have the option to absorb the position without violating the Agreement.