When is the PinnaColaba list effective?

[gojo]

In order to displace anyone, I have to be senior to them. I was placed behind the all the "200 captains", so the only ones I would even have a chance of displacing are the few below me. I guess that was the 541 number I guess...I hope the master list with people's equipment on it comes out soon. I am really interested in seeing what the guys around me are on so I can figure out where I will take a seat when the music stops. Flyer, if it's any consolation, I truly don't think I will be able to hold a jet captain spot.

I think you will. did you go to a road show? we are not below all jet captains. In fact there are about 90 below us. Higney is one of them.

 

[bri5150]

Yeah, but there are 90 guys above me that aren't in jets either. I am sure some won't go, but who knows? I guess we will find out in the next 6-9 months or sooner.

 

[Flyer1015]

bri, there are plenty of Pinnalce guys above the 541 number that fell in category 2. Many CRJ-200 Captains are below you, and I'd venture to say we have 600+ CRJ-200 Captains at 9E. We can lose it all the way to 541 positions. As already mentioned above bri, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. The rest of us Pinnacle FOs and junior Pinnacle Captains are pretty much in the "hosed" category.

 

[higney85]

bri, there are plenty of Pinnalce guys above the 541 number that fell in category 2. Many CRJ-200 Captains are below you, and I'd venture to say we have 600+ CRJ-200 Captains at 9E. We can lose it all the way to 541 positions. As already mentioned above bri, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. The rest of us Pinnacle FOs and junior Pinnacle Captains are pretty much in the "hosed" category.

Not necessarily. It's a quota, not a fence. The issue of upgrades and displacements are different issues. For upgrades it is a ratio when filling vacancies once the quota is reached (it's a min for said equipment). So while our guys feel "they get our upgrades" the mesaba and colgan guys farther down the list have a potential to upgrade as they planned as well. With the hiring the company is doing and the guys/gals leaving (already- before the supposed "wave") these quotas will quickly become ratios. Looking at the numbers and talking to our merger guys it doesn't appear, on paper, to be something that will impact all 3 groups for 5 years.

The displacements are different in that they may come at a considerably quicker and more short term rate. In the event that there is the massive XJ Saab displacement in the near future (reality) the atmosphere of bumping becomes very possible. For example, if Bri is senior to me and is displaced he can bid the -200. If he is senior to anyone on the -200 in that base he can have it. In DTW he WOULD have it over me being senior to me while I am on the equip in that base. It now becomes the issue of the company either absorbing the extra CA (me) or bumping me out to my next pref that I can hold. There are 2 significant issues with the bump in relation to the company. 1- there is a FULL training cycle for the new CA (Bri). In this case it would be MANY CA's in the displacment and although the saabs would already be gone the CA's going to new equip are now "lost" on the line for at least a couple months while training. 2- If I am displaced I would also be in training too. There is a trickle down effect that would in essence remove MORE pilots from the line for months and leave a short situation with a ratio of more pilots to A/C. Being that we are so short now and expecting movement it would take another economic storm for the company NOT to simply absorb. While this example is with just Bri and I, there are potentially HUNDREDS of pilots who would move around in secondaries. That is a significant cost to the company, and a potential staffing crisis. A displacement is a threat to all (it's never looked at as a "good" thing to see posted), but I don't see the company taking it lightly with 36 crew positions and 3000 pilots.

Without the hard numbers and not being able to predict the future, it's hard to make factual based statements on the entire situation. What you can say is in the event of the Saab CA's being displaced at once the next 2-3 months for them in training could very well cover attrition during the time period or simply allow the company to be ahead of the staffing model. That isn't necessarily a bad thing and also something that most regionals haven't had in a long time, if ever. Look at the current situation at almost all carriers- they are short. Trying to push everyone backwards, when the top positions are being vacated only leaves a huge gap that will bite back violently.

That's enough for my sunday morning soap box, I think the point(s) are made. Until we see the vacancies an displacements everyone seems to think more negative than positive. We can't change the outcome. Update your standing bid and wait for the dominos to fall.

 

[sinkrate]

In order to displace anyone, I have to be senior to them.

I'm not so sure about that. Read point 5 in the 'Conditions and Restrictions' carefully. If I am reading this correctly Displacements will be done with the same ratio as vacancy awards.

If an SF3 pilot is diplaced out of his position,
and there are fewer than 100 former Mesaba pilots holding CRJ CA
and there are more than 541 former PCL pilots holding CRJ CA

The SF3 pilot will displace the most junior PCL CA, without regard to seniority. In this case the SF3 pilot can displace some one senior to him on the ISL. If this is due to a reduction in staffing the company may not have the option to absorb the position without violating the Agreement.

 

[bri5150]

I see your point sinkrate, but all the minimum 541 9E captains are above me...Until there is attrition of course. I guess I won't believe any of this until my ass is sitting in the left seat of a 200. Until then, I will expect the worst because that is what has happened to me most of the time in the past 6.5 years here.

 

[xjgearbtch]

I'm not so sure about that. Read point 5 in the 'Conditions and Restrictions' carefully. If I am reading this correctly Displacements will be done with the same ratio as vacancy awards.

If an SF3 pilot is diplaced out of his position,
and there are fewer than 100 former Mesaba pilots holding CRJ CA
and there are more than 541 former PCL pilots holding CRJ CA

The SF3 pilot will displace the most junior PCL CA, without regard to seniority. In this case the SF3 pilot can displace some one senior to him on the ISL. If this is due to a reduction in staffing the company may not have the option to absorb the position without violating the Agreement.

This was something that confused many at the union meeting. You have this incorrect. The Mesaba SAAB Pilot will displace one of the 100 Mesaba Pilots on 200, not one of the 541 pilots on the PCL side. The only scenario in which a PCL pilot will lose their position is if there are 100 Mesaba Pilots, 542 PCL pilots and the Pilot 542 is junior to displaced SAAB Pilot. No Mesaba pilot can displace the 541 CRJ 200 Captains at PCL, no matter how junior they (the PCL pilot) are!!!!!! The SAAB pilot can displace Mesaba pilots only. This is in effect for 5 years.

 

[sinkrate]

This was something that confused many at the union meeting. You have this incorrect. The Mesaba SAAB Pilot will displace one of the 100 Mesaba Pilots on 200, not one of the 541 pilots on the PCL side. The only scenario in which a PCL pilot will lose their position is if there are 100 Mesaba Pilots, 542 PCL pilots and the Pilot 542 is junior to displaced SAAB Pilot. No Mesaba pilot can displace the 541 CRJ 200 Captains at PCL, no matter how junior they (the PCL pilot) are!!!!!! The SAAB pilot can displace Mesaba pilots only. This is in effect for 5 years.

This wouldn't be the first time I've seen Union reps not understand what a lawyer said, or what written language says. In fact, I've seen it many times on both counts. You detail one scenario where it could happen. Keep in mind there are many more PCL CA's than the minimum of 541. My calculus is if there is a base 'realignment' or down sizing we are going to see it happen.

 

[higney85]

This wouldn't be the first time I've seen Union reps not understand what a lawyer said, or what written language says. In fact, I've seen it many times on both counts. You detail one scenario where it could happen. Keep in mind there are many more PCL CA's than the minimum of 541. My calculus is if there is a base 'realignment' or down sizing we are going to see it happen.

Bingo. Step away from "sides" and read the language as an overall issue. Ratios are in play overall. 9E has more than the quota, XJ will be at or above by the time the displacement comes into play. Ratios/quota/conditions and restrictions will apply. Read them as if they don't apply to you, then see where you stand on the second time through. Some will be unaffected, others (like myself) will be riding the bubble.

 

[xjgearbtch]

This wouldn't be the first time I've seen Union reps not understand what a lawyer said, or what written language says. In fact, I've seen it many times on both counts. You detail one scenario where it could happen. Keep in mind there are many more PCL CA's than the minimum of 541. My calculus is if there is a base 'realignment' or down sizing we are going to see it happen.

You misunderstood me, our union reps clarified what you had incorrectly stated. Mesaba cannot displace the 541 PCL pilots from their captain positions. That is protected for 5 years no matter what. Think of it this way if all 200 flying were to go away next year, no PCL pilot can displace the 275(don't remember the exact number) Mesaba pilot. No matter how senior they are.

 

[bri5150]

The ratios to fill a vacancy only come into effect if two of the airlines haven't filled the minimum amount they should have in the position the vacancy is filling. For example, if Pinnacle had less than 541 200 captains and Mesaba had less than 100, then the ratio that is given in the SLI award is used to fill the positions until either Pinnacle or Mesaba have their minimum postions filled. At that point, all the positions would go to the airline that isn't filled yet. Once both are filled, then it is open to anyone on the list with the seniority to hold it.

 

[sinkrate]

It is not the 541 PCL CA's I'm talking about. It is CA's 542 and lower. PCL has about 600 CA's now. Those PCL CA's can be displaced by a Mesaba pilot junior to them, if the cards fall right. And if there is a big move of equipment and crews from one domicile to another the odds of the cards falling right increases significantly. Now, Delta is not finished moving their flying around, or shrinking the 200 fleet. They are notorious for moving flying and equipment around on a whim. Do you really think all the CRJ's are going to be in the same domiciles in 5 years?

 

[bri5150]

I fear in 5 years, they will be mostly on their way out. You know at the very least they will be threatened as we go into contract negotiations again. I have flown in to DTW a couple times this week and dang there are a lot of 200's out there, all lined up in a row. When I see that, I just have to wonder whose idea it was to buy 20 gazillion of those things and think it was a good decision. I understand fuel was lower at that point, but isn't everything supposed to be done in moderation?

 

[sinkrate]

Which brings us back to the original point. By managements own admision Mesaba, like most shrinking carriers, was over staffed and PCL was understaffed at the time the Bloch took the snapshot. A very good case can be made the that this will result in a windfall for Mesaba pilots and that the 'ratio' should have used AC, and not pilots, in the fleet.

 

[gojo]

Which brings us back to the original point. By managements own admision Mesaba, like most shrinking carriers, was over staffed and PCL was understaffed at the time the Bloch took the snapshot. A very good case can be made the that this will result in a windfall for Mesaba pilots and that the 'ratio' should have used AC, and not pilots, in the fleet.

Well, I would hardly call that a windfall. Maybe, and I use that word lightly, it will just get us closer to evening things out. I would say Colgan got a windfall in all areas. I am now 40 numbers junior to a friend that was hired at Colgan 2 1/2 years after me. How is that fair and equitable? I lost 2 1/2 years of seniority, 2% relative seniority, obtained only modest gains in the new contract, and lost the ability to flow to Delta