Whats up with civi pilots?

[SIG600]

Never claimed to be an expert on any of it, but I'll zip up the flame suit... I did (still do) know a lot of civi guys that always thought military guys were uncouth hacks with no clue about "real world" flying and that single seat guys had no place in a multi crew cockpit. Comments like "single seat fighter pilots know nothing about CRM and shouldn't be eligible to fly for the airlines" never understanding just how freakin hard it can be. Backing up a wingman on the PCL is a PERFECT example of CRM but they'll never understand that. His post up there is an example of that. Every cockpit has it's challenges... Hell flying good tac form can be enough to frustrate you into submission (or at least me).

 

[NoKoolAid]

Big Picture

Let me break it down for you. I left the military for my wife and kids, and our financial future back in 1999. I miss the military big time -- friends, mission, making a difference, service to country, all that and more.

Flying for FredEx, I'm flat out lucky based on the industry situation. But, you're dang right I'm bitching for a slice of the proverbial pie. I guarantee you would take an ass-whoopin' after a week of night hub turns, no sleep, crappy food, etc. (month after month) You'd be bitchin' too bother. When you are breakin' your balls for the man and he doesn't throw you a bone, then we have a problem. See the point? If not, don't read anymore. Basic economics and common sense required to move forward.

In the past, you went civilian for the money, retirement, and benefits. Obviously that has taken a hit in recent years. UPS, FedEx, SWA are doing well but the rest of the industry is hurtin'. Jet Blue and Airtran are up and coming, but I wouldn't leave for a career with them -- do what my buddy did, go to Airtran for a year and bail out for FedEx. SWEEEET. FedEx, 2nd year widebody FO -- a cool $120K. Hell, not even the CHMN of the JCS pulls down that kind of JACK!

The scheduled flying is pretty lame for the most part. But that's not why I left. Just my piece of advice -- since you dig the military flying, do that either full-time or part-time in the guard or Reserves. You're in an uphill battle with a helo background for getting on with a major airline. Build civilian time for a few years. Work your arse off in the guard/reserves to keep the paychecks looking good.

If I was faced with the same transition today, I would stay in the military until 20 years and then test the airline waters. If you are able to get commuter or regional time under your belt + guard or reserve, then you are on your way.

General civilian airline flying can be challenging depending on the situation, but overall it pales in comparison to the responsibilities and challenges facing ANY military pilot on a day-to-day basis. I respect the sacrifices civilian-only pilots endure on their way to the majors. BUT, don't ever let a civilian-only guy crack on you for what you do. Quite a few of them know deep down inside they couldn't hack it under fire. 'Nuff said. Capeche?

Peace.
Happy New Year!

NKA

 

[NoKoolAid]

Big Picture

Let me break it down for you. I left the military for my wife and kids, and our financial future back in 1999. I miss the military big time -- friends, mission, making a difference, service to country, all that and more.

Flying for FredEx, I'm flat out lucky based on the industry situation. But, you're dang right I'm bitching for a slice of the proverbial pie. I guarantee you would take an ass-whoopin' after a week of night hub turns, no sleep, crappy food, etc. (month after month) You'd be bitchin' too bother. When you are breakin' your balls for the man and he doesn't throw you a bone, then we have a problem. See the point? If not, don't read anymore. Basic economics and common sense required to move forward.

In the past, you went civilian for the money, retirement, and benefits. Obviously that has taken a hit in recent years. UPS, FedEx, SWA are doing well but the rest of the industry is hurtin'. Jet Blue and Airtran are up and coming, but I wouldn't leave for a career with them -- do what my buddy did, go to Airtran for a year and bail out for FedEx. SWEEEET. FedEx, 2nd year widebody FO -- a cool $120K. Hell, not even the CHMN of the JCS pulls down that kind of JACK!

The scheduled flying is pretty lame for the most part. But that's not why I left. Just my piece of advice -- since you dig the military flying, do that either full-time or part-time in the guard or Reserves. You're in an uphill battle with a helo background for getting on with a major airline. Build civilian time for a few years. Work your arse off in the guard/reserves to keep the paychecks looking good.

If I was faced with the same transition today, I would stay in the military until 20 years and then test the airline waters. If you are able to get commuter or regional time under your belt + guard or reserve, then you are on your way.

General civilian airline flying can be challenging depending on the situation, but overall it pales in comparison to the responsibilities and challenges facing ANY military pilot on a day-to-day basis. I respect the sacrifices civilian-only pilots endure on their way to the majors. BUT, don't ever let a civilian-only guy crack on you for what you do. Quite a few of them know deep down inside they couldn't hack it under fire. 'Nuff said. Capeche?

Peace.
Happy New Year!

NKA

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Hi Neal, I've not read Wings of Fury, but I will soon... Amazon has a number of them, used, from $1.00 each!

I'd bet it is the same guy. At the time I entered the 58th as a noob, Mongo was a young and pretty new Target Arm with a well-deserved reputation. He was one of the rarer individuals with not only vast skills in the air, but an ability to teach as well, and that was the job of Fighter Weapons School graduates, to return from Nellis and pass on the knowledge they gained.

Mongo was a G-monster. He could key the mike at ~9G and sound like a laid-back dude from Cleveland Center as he directed flights of aircraft in the immediate vicinity towards or away from nearby airborne threats, while simultaneously dispatching his opponents one by one.

Great book...I think you will enjoy it and obviously will relate to a lot of it and know many of the people described throughout the book. When I read it, it only further increased my desire to become a part of your "fraternity." Sadly (for me), I lost my UPT slot to the DC ANG F-16 unit due to a red/green color deficiency. I still like to read up on that world and get to live vicariously through a college buddy who is flying F-15C's up at Elmendorf. Sounds like Mongo's SA was second to none.

As to the military/civilian debate, this will sadly go on for many years to come. It is 2 completely different types of flying...just like corporate is different from 121 and EMS helo flying is different from ag flying. Like anything, there are going to be bad pilots in all arenas and good pilots in all arenas. Just because someone wasn't a military pilot doesn't mean he a) didn't want to go that route or b) couldn't hack it in that part of aviation. It also doesn't mean that he did want to go that route...there are plenty of very capable civilian-only aviators who were qualified to wear the nomex flight suit but chose not to for whatever reason. Each area of aviation is different with its different positive and negative aspects. That said, if I had my choice, I would say yes, flying single seat pointy nosed fighters would be my dream aviation job...but hey, that's just me.

-Neal

 

[pilotyip]

Bludev well said civil and military are two different types of training and flying. At 350 hours TT I was flying a P-3 off the coast of Vietnam. I was routinely flying that 127K four engine turbo-prop at 200' off the water in IFR conditions doing radar runs in on unknown targets with an engine shut down to save fuel. It is a skill that any professional pilot could acquire. However the military wants you to do be able to do this very early in your flying career and training is focused upon being mission qualified without a broad knowledge of the flying world. At that same time I could have not have entered the VFR pattern at an uncontrolled civilian airport, I had never been trained to do that. After leaving active duty in 1977 with over 2500 hrs, I had never shot an ILS approach. Military flying is just a different sets of flying skills from the civilian world. There are very capable pilots on both sides.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Hit "Enter" Twice???

Big Pictures for ALL my friends!!!!!

 

[JungleJett]

I originally posted something lenghty but thought better of getting sucked into a first grade level argument from both sides.

Cheers and Happy New Year!!

 

[Lead Sled]

Bludev well said civil and military are two different types of training and flying. At 350 hours TT I was flying a P-3 off the coast of Vietnam. I was routinely flying that 127K four engine turbo-prop at 200' off the water in IFR conditions doing radar runs in on unknown targets with an engine shut down to save fuel. It is a skill that any professional pilot could acquire. However the military wants you to do be able to do this very early in your flying career and training is focused upon being mission qualified without a broad knowledge of the flying world. At that same time I could have not have entered the VFR pattern at an uncontrolled civilian airport, I had never been trained to do that. After leaving active duty in 1977 with over 2500 hrs, I had never shot an ILS approach. Military flying is just a different sets of flying skills from the civilian world. There are very capable pilots on both sides.

Thanks Yip good post. Thats basically all I ever said.

It's all about training, acquiring skill sets, and experience. Being good in one "world" doesn't necessarily mean that you'll do well in the other - without additional training. The big kicker is "attitude". It's much easier to teach someone something if they don't already think that they know everything.

Happy New Year to all.

'Sled

 

[SIG600]

It's all about training, acquiring skill sets, and experience. Being good in one "world" doesn't necessarily mean that you'll do well in the other.

One thing that amazed me were guys with barely 200 hours (which wouldn't get you a comm. pilots licence) but yet had aquired the skill to take high performance single engine jets off shore, and land them on a carrier... But like Yip said, a lot of us wouldn't know how to enter a civilian traffic pattern and some have never even filed a flight plan with an FSS. It's all about what you're trained to do, and what you're exposed to.

Edit... and if you really wanna talk about "training to do something" look at NFO and Nav types. Those guys can be in combat within prob two years of their first flight in an airplane.

 

[Draginass]

The military is a lot more choosy and ruthless in it's selection and initial training than a civilian flight school whose criteria is "how much money ya got."

Civilian flying does not even approach 1/10th the complexity and demand of military flying. Been there, done both.