What's the freakin' deal?!?

[Just Jay]

Am I missing something? All of these jobs in the middle east and asia asking for typed pilots are really confusing me. There has been so many job openings there for quite a while now requiring type ratings that it seems they aren't able to fill the spots.

Are they so frugle that they are just trying to leach off displaced U.S. (or other) pilots with type ratings? Do they just NEVER pay for thier own pilot training? They won't even get you typed and they still want a FIVE year contract in some cases. Should non-rated pilots even bother applying? It just doesn't seem to make sense.

I'm all bewildered (kind of).

 

[mxer]

Have a look at the AJX/AJV contracts. They are accepting non-rated 767 applicants.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Am I missing something? All of these jobs in the middle east and asia asking for typed pilots are really confusing me. There has been so many job openings there for quite a while now requiring type ratings that it seems they aren't able to fill the spots.

Are they so frugle that they are just trying to leach off displaced U.S. (or other) pilots with type ratings? Do they just NEVER pay for thier own pilot training? They won't even get you typed and they still want a FIVE year contract in some cases. Should non-rated pilots even bother applying? It just doesn't seem to make sense.

I'm all bewildered (kind of).

Regulatory authorities in many countries will only allow the hiring of "experienced" pilots with time on type. This can be an immigration issue or an aviation regulatory issue for the license conversion.



TP

 

[CX880]

My favorites are the ones with heavy experience requirements like a 747. I would imagine if I was already flying a 747 somewhere I would most probably have decent seniority. Why would I move continents and airlines. It's the way they do things that we don't understand. Time on type is more important.

 

[big pimpn']

These contracts are not as good as they seem on the surface. I have received application packets from Asiana, Korean and NCA over the last year from Cambridge communications, Rishworth ect. They seem to be looking for anyone that has a pulse and is typed on the 744. After looking at the fine print, their commuting contract sucks. They will tell you for examle that you get 12 hard days off per month; you really only get 9 and the remaining 3 are "commuting days" that you have to take out of your vacation. Also, they tell you that as an expat you are tax exempt; in reality, only the first 80k or so is tax free and their is plenty of red tape involved with that. Also, you have to deal with their BS training. Initial training at NCA for example is around 6 months long, and I don't think you get to go home. Not really that great of a deal in my opinion. I think you would be better served to dump the contract pilot idea and just go to Emirates if you want to fly overseas. Just my .02

 

[MJ42]

My favorites are the ones with heavy experience requirements like a 747. I would imagine if I was already flying a 747 somewhere I would most probably have decent seniority. Why would I move continents and airlines. It's the way they do things that we don't understand. Time on type is more important.

Maybe you should read the cargo section once in a while. Looks like there will be a number of Kalitta pilots on the street soon. Just cause you don't have the experience doesn't mean there aren't plenty on the streets who do! Lots of experienced 747, DC-10, 767/57, A300 and other heavy drivers presently out of work.

That being said...big pimpn's post provides some good insight.

 

[Just Jay]

Well if it is a regulatory requirement, I can understand that.

If some of these contracts are so bad then they won't be filling those seats even if there are a lot of heavy drivers on the streets here (or other than the continent of employment).

I'm fresh out of a P.91 gig in a Hawker that decided to move base across the country and just trying to figure out the market. It doesn't seem like there is much to figure out.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Well if it is a regulatory requirement, I can understand that.

If some of these contracts are so bad then they won't be filling those seats even if there are a lot of heavy drivers on the streets here (or other than the continent of employment).

Bad for who is the question? Everybody's circumstances and needs are different. A South American 767 Captain making $3000/month and living in a dangerous country would likely jump at some of these contracts. Same holds for Africans, Russians, etc.

You can't compare contract flying to flying for a major in the USA. Majors in the USA ( for the most part ) are far better than any contract gig out there. They generally have better pay, work rules, schedules, security, etc. People who go contracting need to because they've lost their job for one reason or another or they want a better life out of their third world country.

Korean is one of the best commuting contracts out there. You must realize that is what it is set-up for. It's works for many people, but doesn't for others.

Not much red tape at all for the foreign earned income exclusion. As long as you meet one of two basic tests you get it.



Typhoonpilot

 

[Dumb Pilot]

You can't compare contract flying to flying for a major in the USA. Majors in the USA ( for the most part ) are far better than any contract gig out there. They generally have better pay, work rules, schedules, security, etc. People who go contracting need to because they've lost their job for one reason or another or they want a better life out of their third world country.

Really? there are more legacy pilots here in ANA than anybody from South America or Russia the majority of ex pat pilots are from Australia and Europe. Right now both the ANA contracts and NCA contracts are swamped with applicants (mostly by Americans) Did you say that the pay at a legacy was better? Now that one blew my mind, I'm making more than any 767 12 year seniority captain and I didn't loose my job nor was I escaping from a dangerous country although down town Saint Paul can be pretty rough. At ANA or NCA there are no pilots that meet that description actually. About job security, If I would have taken any of the two offers that I had in the US (including one legacy) I would be furloughed right now. I understand that you don't like their requirements but the fact is that they have a lot of applicants that do meet this minimums, I flew recently with the latest F/O that made it to the line and this guy is at 7,000 hours with plenty of pic time.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

These contracts are not as good as they seem on the surface. I have received application packets from Asiana, Korean and NCA over the last year from Cambridge communications, Rishworth ect. They seem to be looking for anyone that has a pulse and is typed on the 744. After looking at the fine print, their commuting contract sucks. They will tell you for examle that you get 12 hard days off per month; you really only get 9 and the remaining 3 are "commuting days" that you have to take out of your vacation. Also, they tell you that as an expat you are tax exempt; in reality, only the first 80k or so is tax free and their is plenty of red tape involved with that. Also, you have to deal with their BS training. Initial training at NCA for example is around 6 months long, and I don't think you get to go home. Not really that great of a deal in my opinion. I think you would be better served to dump the contract pilot idea and just go to Emirates if you want to fly overseas. Just my .02

The failure rate during interviews is quite high, here at AJV/AJX is about 60% and according to the NCA guys that I see regularly it is pretty much the same there, so it takes quite a bit more than having a pulse. If this contracts are not so good, I wonder why nobody leaves?

 

[Just Jay]

I understand that you don't like their requirements but the fact is that they have a lot of applicants that do meet this minimums, I flew recently with the latest F/O that made it to the line and this guy is at 7,000 hours with plenty of pic time.

If they have a lot of applicants that meet thier minimums and they are still hiring than it really says something about the state of our (U.S.) aviation industry and economy because that ain't what's happenin' here. Mind you this isn't really a complaint but more of an observation.

 

[big pimpn']

The failure rate during interviews is quite high, here at AJV/AJX is about 60% and according to the NCA guys that I see regularly it is pretty much the same there, so it takes quite a bit more than having a pulse. If this contracts are not so good, I wonder why nobody leaves?

I hear ya, the “pulse” comment was referring more to Asiana and Korean. I defenately would not put ANA/NCA in their leage. NCA has a great contract. I know times are tough and we all have different needs and situations. Also, I am referring to going over to these places as FOs; if you go to Korean as a direct entry captain, that is a completely different ball of wax. Those guys have it pretty good. It was just my observation after reading the contracts that some of us might be better served to try to get on with a place like Emirates than going to work as a contractor. Again, this is just my .02.
PS, I’m too lazy to go to work for NCA or Cathay, I don’t think I could honestly leave a good job and take 6 months out of my life to go through initial training on an airplane that I am already current and typed on. If I was out of a job, obviously that would be a different story.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Really? there are more legacy pilots here in ANA than anybody from South America or Russia the majority of ex pat pilots are from Australia and Europe. Right now both the ANA contracts and NCA contracts are swamped with applicants (mostly by Americans) Did you say that the pay at a legacy was better? Now that one blew my mind, I'm making more than any 767 12 year seniority captain and I didn't loose my job nor was I escaping from a dangerous country although down town Saint Paul can be pretty rough. At ANA or NCA there are no pilots that meet that description actually. About job security, If I would have taken any of the two offers that I had in the US (including one legacy) I would be furloughed right now.

You've been there, what, two-three years? There is a vast difference in being a contract pilot for a short period of time and of a long period of time. The major part of that difference is there are very few long term contractors. Contracts terms get eroded, contracts get terminated, pilots get sick of the commute and want to be closer to home, etc.

It's a rare person that can handle the twice monthly 8 hour time zone change on those Asian commuting jobs. A very good friend of mine has moved to Hawaii just to reduce the multiple time zone changes on his commute to Asia.

The majority of legacy pilots I see overseas are furloughed or early retirees. The rest were junior at their company and wanted a chance at the widebody. Many of those are on leaves of absence and will most likely return when their legacy improves. You do not see Fedex, UPS, or SWA guys overseas. You would never have seen USAirways, DAL, NWA, UAL, or CAL guys overseas up until the post 9-11 period. Only since the pensions have gone away and stagnation has occured do you see these guys leaving to go overseas.

Still, many do not understand the pitfalls of flying overseas for long periods of time. If you break your leg while on your days off how many contracts will continue to pay you? How many guys lose their job mid-contract or don't get a renewal because they rubbed somebody the wrong way?

You're making more than a 12 year UPS 767 captain? Really, now that's a good contract!! I don't doubt your pay is reasonable, in fact I know exactly what it is and it ain't the equivalent of a UPS or Fedex captain. It might be close to an SWA captain. It's not much more than a 767 captain at many of the other legacies that have had massive pay cuts.

I do understand what you are saying. Contracting can be a good deal and can jump start a career, but it's still not as good as a good U.S. airline over the long term.



Typhoonpilot

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Of course, who would become an ex pat if you can get another job locally that would be similar to what you had before? I just found it Ironic that you became an ex pat because your legacy job went south and you are talking about job security and pay. After all you didn't chose to go to the bottom at CAL or UAL right? my point is that pilots that decide to become ex pats doesn't necessarily mean that they are from third world countries or that they are escaping a dangerous environment, that certainly wasn't your case

 

[flyboyike]

...although down town Saint Paul can be pretty rough...

Not to mention Cedar ave and Co Rd 42.

 

[MED]

Initial training at NCA for example is around 6 months long, and I don't think you get to go home. Not really that great of a deal in my opinion. I think you would be better served to dump the contract pilot idea and just go to Emirates if you want to fly overseas. Just my .02

It's 6 months including IOE and the 5 weeks that you're going to spend at home(with salary) while waiting for your ATPL after passing the checkride. The spouse and kids can visit you in Tokyo while you are in training too(fully paid by NCA). Not bad for a contract gig if you're going to ask me.

 

[MED]

edited.

 

[Golden Falcon]

It's simple to figure out...if there are type rated pilots on the market, then carriers will take them..if not then jet=experienced, next is heavy turboprop..simple supply and demand..a type-rated pilot is easier and much quicker to get online and productive for the company...

 

[ACT700]

It's simple to figure out...if there are type rated pilots on the market, then carriers will take them..if not then jet=experienced, next is heavy turboprop..simple supply and demand..a type-rated pilot is easier and much quicker to get online and productive for the company...[/quote]

I don't think that's quite right. The ANA deal still requires the 6 months of training, from what I've read here and elsewhere.
Is that correct?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

As I understand, NCA is currently only accepting applicants that have the type rating on the 747 thus the six month training period. At ANA (AJV/AJX) there is a course for type rated pilots that takes from 6 to 7 months including OJT (a.k.a. OE here in the states)
But for non rated pilots (my case) it took me 8 1/2 months from first day of ground school to line certification as a captain here.
pretty long but plenty of time off during training and your family came to Tokyo and spent 3 weeks all expenses paid by the company (except food) and after sim training and check rides (two, one for the type and one for the ATPL) I went home for 3 weeks before coming back to start my OJT. There is no training pay at ANA, you start making your cap/fo salary from the day you leave to TYO and the company puts you up in a hotel (AJV) or an apartment (AJX) during your training period and you get your perdiem,transportation (train costs) is also paid but you have to submit a reimbursement form. The training period is long no doubt but you get plenty of time off during your training (too much time off actually) and the job is worth it in my view.