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Whats next for ASA????

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1x1 said:
I swear, the audacity of management boils my blood. I can only pray for the survival of the company that they are not seriously considering paying 70 drivers less than 50 drivers. They sure are doing one hell of a job stalling with a contract and raking in the $$$$$$$$ for the present time. Sons-a-bitzzzzs. On top of that, the LOA with SKYW and our scope need to be realized , and trip/duty rigs as well. Otherwise they can shove their contract in the unholiest of places. This sure is getting fugly.:angryfire

1x1, it was actually ALPA that started out stalling negotiations 4 years ago. ALPA wanted to drag out negotiations until such time as the industry improved.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Don't worry crjskipper, ALPA will take care of everything. Just keep sending that $ to Herndon - Duane needs new shoes.

So what is the answer John??

Step by step. From here to the end game, what is your solution. I really want to hear it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
So what is the answer John??

Step by step. From here to the end game, what is your solution. I really want to hear it.

That depends on what your "end game" is. These negotiations are not what I consider the "end game" anymore. We need to lay a foundation to regain some leverage and it won't be easy nor quick.

1. First we need to stop the bleeding. Do whatever it takes to keep as much flying as we can. You can call it "pay to play" or "whorring yourself out", but I call it living to fight another day. Whether you like it or not, ALPA has helped management create this competitive environment and we must deal with it. Ignoring it and cussing it won't solve it.

2. ALPA needs some major overhauling. We are going to have to start working on a national seniority list concept and barriers to entry. Without the ability to move laterally and with the ability to train an airline pilot in 10-12 months, our leverage is severly limited. How can we compare ourselves to lawyers, doctors, and accountants? How many doctors, lawyers, and accountants have to start all over at the bottom if they change employers? How many doctors, lawyers, and accountants can go from no experience to employed in 10-12 months?

3. Quit using scope to divide us and start using it to unify us. The Northwest pilots just created yet another alter-ego carrier and agreed to fly 78 seaters for less than we currently fly the 70 seater for. They left their Meseba and Pinnacle "brothers" hanging in the wind, along with all of us who rely on pattern bargaining.

I could go on, but there is a start.....
 
JoeMerchant said:
That depends on what your "end game" is. These negotiations are not what I consider the "end game" anymore. We need to lay a foundation to regain some leverage and it won't be easy nor quick.

1. First we need to stop the bleeding. Do whatever it takes to keep as much flying as we can. You can call it "pay to play" or "whorring yourself out", but I call it living to fight another day. Whether you like it or not, ALPA has helped management create this competitive environment and we must deal with it. Ignoring it and cussing it won't solve it.

2. ALPA needs some major overhauling. We are going to have to start working on a national seniority list concept and barriers to entry. Without the ability to move laterally and with the ability to train an airline pilot in 10-12 months, our leverage is severly limited. How can we compare ourselves to lawyers, doctors, and accountants? How many doctors, lawyers, and accountants have to start all over at the bottom if they change employers? How many doctors, lawyers, and accountants can go from no experience to employed in 10-12 months?

3. Quit using scope to divide us and start using it to unify us. The Northwest pilots just created yet another alter-ego carrier and agreed to fly 78 seaters for less than we currently fly the 70 seater for. They left their Meseba and Pinnacle "brothers" hanging in the wind, along with all of us who rely on pattern bargaining.

I could go on, but there is a start.....


Joe,
You have to quit. You're making sense and you know we can't have any of that while the union boys froth at the mouth.
 
Turkey Shoot said:
Joe,
You have to quit. You're making sense and you know we can't have any of that while the union boys froth at the mouth.


I know TurkeyShoot, I have been beating my head against the Herndon wall for years now. Instead of long term strategic planning, ALPA prefers bag stickers, slogans, and study committees.
 
:rolleyes:Turkey, the skwst guys/gals don't say anything because it would not matter, uncle Jerry does whatever he wants!
 
sweptback said:
Sure, the company moved... for the captains. The paycut on the 70 actually INCREASED from 8 to 13% for FOs. If you do the math that puts 70 FOs paid less than 50 FOs. Makes perfect sense, right?


That way they can get the majority to approve of it because it screws a minority of the FOs (screw the 70 FOs). Then, once it passes, they start swapping out 50s for 70s and guess what? You've approved a pay cut either way you slice it.

The other thing that people keep forgetting is that we have lower operating costs than most so even though it looks like they're going to 'take' our 70s...90's (whatever), Delta still needs that lift out of Atlanta and ASA has to do 80% of it (contract). It's all smoke and mirrors to increase profitability on an already very profitable unit (ASA).

Hold the line, don't vote in a concessionary contract for growth.
 
:cool:AMEN Silverandsore!! I and the majority of the pilot group AGREE with YOU! No Concessions!!! Yes for me on the STRIKE VOTE!!!
 
JoeMerchant said:
That depends on what your "end game" is. These negotiations are not what I consider the "end game" anymore. We need to lay a foundation to regain some leverage and it won't be easy nor quick.

1. First we need to stop the bleeding. Do whatever it takes to keep as much flying as we can. You can call it "pay to play" or "whorring yourself out", but I call it living to fight another day. Whether you like it or not, ALPA has helped management create this competitive environment and we must deal with it. Ignoring it and cussing it won't solve it.

I must disagree.

We can't give in to the pay to play game, because it is a slippery slope. Ask the Comair pilots where it got them.

JoeMerchant said:
2. ALPA needs some major overhauling. We are going to have to start working on a national seniority list concept and barriers to entry. Without the ability to move laterally and with the ability to train an airline pilot in 10-12 months, our leverage is severly limited. How can we compare ourselves to lawyers, doctors, and accountants? How many doctors, lawyers, and accountants have to start all over at the bottom if they change employers? How many doctors, lawyers, and accountants can go from no experience to employed in 10-12 months?

With this I agree. What's the solution to it? Figure that out and you should get DW's job. ALPA will never get one seniority list because it's not a real union... it's an Association. Too many people in ALPA will always look out for #1. How will you change that?

JoeMerchant said:
3. Quit using scope to divide us and start using it to unify us. The Northwest pilots just created yet another alter-ego carrier and agreed to fly 78 seaters for less than we currently fly the 70 seater for. They left their Meseba and Pinnacle "brothers" hanging in the wind, along with all of us who rely on pattern bargaining.

I could go on, but there is a start.....

See question number two. It's one thing to make big talk, another to make it happen. How will you make it happen.
 
JoeMerchant said:
1x1, it was actually ALPA that started out stalling negotiations 4 years ago. ALPA wanted to drag out negotiations until such time as the industry improved.

Get off it Joe, Both sides had the same idea, but DAL's idea was to do it from the start until they could sell us. Which happened to be 3 yrs.

The union chose to negotiate the whole time, but use the IBB technique which we knew was slow. The CNC always showed up prepared and ready to negotiate 100% of the time. Can't say the same about managment can we?

Yeah, it was a tactic cause everyone thought things would improve. They took that bet with everyone in the industry and were wrong.
 
GO AROUND said:
Get off it Joe, Both sides had the same idea, but DAL's idea was to do it from the start until they could sell us. Which happened to be 3 yrs.

The union chose to negotiate the whole time, but use the IBB technique which we knew was slow. The CNC always showed up prepared and ready to negotiate 100% of the time. Can't say the same about managment can we?

Yeah, it was a tactic cause everyone thought things would improve. They took that bet with everyone in the industry and were wrong.

Go Around,

Joe is once again misrepresenting the facts. There were 11 different possible scenarios discussed. There were pros and cons to each and there was NEVER one that was selected as THE strategy. Joe spent most of his time surfing the Internet and had very little interaction within the Strategic Planning Committee. He was detached and bored. He couldn't get himself or his girl friend installed as CNC chairman so he fiddled. He wants to be noticed and he was. He did nothing in the way of meaningful work. He will continue to make false statements but they will now be challenged. If he were truly concerned about any one but himself he would do his job as LEC Sec/Treas., attend Family Awareness events and picket. He is a spoiled brat and if he had a political brain in his thick skull he would understand that our pilots know that you can disagree with the MEC and ALPA but still support the goal of obtaining a fair contract. I fully expect him to SCAB if our pilots walk. He will then be politically DEAD!
 
John Pennekamp said:
I must disagree.

We can't give in to the pay to play game, because it is a slippery slope. Ask the Comair pilots where it got them.

Either stop "pay to play", or compete - those are the two options. Not competing is an more of a slippery slope.


John Pennekamp said:
With this I agree. What's the solution to it? Figure that out and you should get DW's job. ALPA will never get one seniority list because it's not a real union... it's an Association. Too many people in ALPA will always look out for #1. How will you change that?

I couldn't have said it better John. See we agree after all. ALPA isn't a true union. I wish I didn't have to pay union dues for a crappy magazine.


John Pennekamp said:
See question number two. It's one thing to make big talk, another to make it happen. How will you make it happen.

I can't make it happen. It's obvious that this "association" has neither the will, nor the ability to make it happen. Therefor I think it is time to fire it.
 
GO AROUND said:
Get off it Joe, Both sides had the same idea, but DAL's idea was to do it from the start until they could sell us. Which happened to be 3 yrs.

The union chose to negotiate the whole time, but use the IBB technique which we knew was slow. The CNC always showed up prepared and ready to negotiate 100% of the time. Can't say the same about managment can we?

Yeah, it was a tactic cause everyone thought things would improve. They took that bet with everyone in the industry and were wrong.

Sorry GO AROUND, the union initially wanted to drag things out. The idea was to wait until the negotiating environment improved.
 
Bizjet said:
Go Around,

Joe is once again misrepresenting the facts. There were 11 different possible scenarios discussed. There were pros and cons to each and there was NEVER one that was selected as THE strategy. Joe spent most of his time surfing the Internet and had very little interaction within the Strategic Planning Committee. He was detached and bored. He couldn't get himself or his girl friend installed as CNC chairman so he fiddled. He wants to be noticed and he was. He did nothing in the way of meaningful work. He will continue to make false statements but they will now be challenged. If he were truly concerned about any one but himself he would do his job as LEC Sec/Treas., attend Family Awareness events and picket. He is a spoiled brat and if he had a political brain in his thick skull he would understand that our pilots know that you can disagree with the MEC and ALPA but still support the goal of obtaining a fair contract. I fully expect him to SCAB if our pilots walk. He will then be politically DEAD!

1. No you and John P. are misrepresenting the facts. Obviously I've hit a nerve and the ALPA spindoctors are working full time to silence those who dare speak out against it.

2. ALPA's initial strategy was to slow down the process so as to have a more favorable industry when the money issues were negotiated.

3. Wasn't on the Strategic Planning Committee, I was on the Contract Study Committee. However the only member of the Strategic Planning Committee who went on to the Negotiating Committee, resigned out of frustration with the way the Committee was being run. In fact over half of the original "A Team" was either fired or resigned do to disagreement over how things were being run.

4. I participated in every informational picketing event in '97/'98. I participated in the CMR informational picketing we had in ATL. It is a total waste of time when this union then allows a striking carrier to move passengers and aircraft from a striking carrier to another ALPA carrier as management did during the CMR strike. This union is a joke - and informational picketing is an insult.

5. This union is already DEAD, you just haven't realized it yet.
 
JoeMerchant said:
1. No you and John P. are misrepresenting the facts. Obviously I've hit a nerve and the ALPA spindoctors are working full time to silence those who dare speak out against it.

Again you are not telling the truth. You have had the freedom to spin your ANTI ALPA/MEC lies for too long. You didn't hit a nerve you just crossed the line. Do you want to tell all our pilots how you and your older lady friend were getting negotiation notes from Ms Diamond. Are you not smart enough to understand the ramifications of your and your older girl friends actions? The same Ms. Diamond who was calling for your removal from the Contract Study Committee because you were a waste of time and money. She constantly whined about you to the CNC Chairman. John Rice was loyal to you till the end. Even when you were trying to destabilize his postition so your older lady friend could take over. You are fooling no one and you will be held accountable.

JoeMerchant said:
2. ALPA's initial strategy was to slow down the process so as to have a more favorable industry when the money issues were negotiated.

Again John Boys revisionist history.

JoeMerchant said:
3. Wasn't on the Strategic Planning Committee, I was on the Contract Study Committee. However the only member of the Strategic Planning Committee who went on to the Negotiating Committee, resigned out of frustration with the way the Committee was being run. In fact over half of the original "A Team" was either fired or resigned do to disagreement over how things were being run.

They like you were removed or resigned because they were trying to take over the CNC and they were the most junior inexperienced members. You were not selected to advance to the CNC because the level of trust in you was just not there. Our MEC Chairman should have resigned for letting someone like you with an ANTI ALPA agenda sit on the CSC. He was warned by all of us that were here in '98' that you and your older girl friend could never be trusted after your actions in '98'.

JoeMerchant said:
4. I participated in every informational picketing event in '97/'98. I participated in the CMR informational picketing we had in ATL. It is a total waste of time when this union then allows a striking carrier to move passengers and aircraft from a striking carrier to another ALPA carrier as management did during the CMR strike. This union is a joke - and informational picketing is an insult.

Well you are certainly MISSING IN ACTION TODAY JOHNNY!!!! You are so full of hatred that you don't have a clue what most pilots think of your inactions. ARE YOU GOING TO SCAB? You have been quoted as saying you will not walk off your job for this MEC. Please tell us! I certainly hope you do. You are so politically void of reason you will probably scab so you can fill that role you are writing for yourself-- JOHN, ALPA VICTIM AND MARTYR! At least if you scab there will be only a 50% pay reduction in the... family income. Or will it be 100%???

JoeMerchant said:
5. This union is already DEAD, you just haven't realized it yet.

You are digging your own political grave spoiled one!! ALPA is certainly not perfect but you can sit in corners and hold your breath until you turn blue and no one will even notice. It may have worked on your parents when you were a kid but there is no time for your childish antics now.

Moderator reviewed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JoeMerchant said:
Sorry GO AROUND, the union initially wanted to drag things out. The idea was to wait until the negotiating environment improved.

I never denied it and neither has anyone in the MEC that I have asked. I understood why they started slow. Doesn't change the fact that they were negotiating nevertheless. You spin it like they didn't negotiate at all and the company was. They made progress in that first year and who knew the industry would stay in the toilet so long. Oh, I guess you did? right?
 
JoeMerchant said:
Either stop "pay to play", or compete - those are the two options. Not competing is an more of a slippery slope.




I couldn't have said it better John. See we agree after all. ALPA isn't a true union. I wish I didn't have to pay union dues for a crappy magazine.




I can't make it happen. It's obvious that this "association" has neither the will, nor the ability to make it happen. Therefor I think it is time to fire it.

We agree on the problem, but not the solution. WHAT'S THE SOLUTION?

Shall we go non union all together?
Shall we start our own union?

What's the answer, John?
 
BobbyBiplane said:
Mr. Bizjet:

Your rant is the definition of childish. Try acting like a professional.

Bob

Care to define "professionalism" for us?

Bobby, while the rant may be childish, NOTHING Bizjet said is untrue. If you don't believe me than ask any of us who were involved in ALPA in the mid to late 90s.

And don't impersonate Bob Arnold with your signature to try and build credibility.
 
Professional - applied to describe a person (or work of such a person) with the following attributes: service orientation, making expertise available to others, based on a distinctive body of knowledge and skills underpinned by abilities and values, autonomy in performing working within defined boundaries, public recognition of the authority of the practitioner by virtue of working to ethical standards and being accountable.

Who is Bob Arnold?

Bob
 

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