What's more dangerous? Taxiway or Overflight+

Mickey

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I'm amazed at the media attention to the NWA overflight but the lack of attention to the landing on a taxiway by Delta. Which one is more dangerous?
 

Erlanger

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To the media it's about what's more sensational and draws ratings. The co-pilot helped drive the story by opening his door and talking.
 

FDJ2

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I'm amazed at the media attention to the NWA overflight but the lack of attention to the landing on a taxiway by Delta. Which one is more dangerous?
They both can be dangerous, but, IMO, that's not why one has caught the attention of the national media and the other hasn't. One incident appears to involve human error, the other neglect.
 

HOMER D POE

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one involves human error, the other neglect
YGTBSM, so the other doesn't involve human error? the other neglect?
i think they both involved both, but one could happen to most anybody, but the other was so grossly unconscionable, so derelict, so wantonly negligent, so pathetic and so lied about. 188 crew is trying to desparately save face even though they're through. they were sleeping and any disgusting attempt to defend them is beyond comprehension. In their vile attempt to pervert the truth and explain away the biggest blunder of modern airline times, they allow themselves to ride out their lives as shams, as liars and hopelessly resigned to dumb anguish. Like OJ, maybe there will be a deathbed confession, a petition for mercy, and an request to be forgiven. just tell the truth. nobody overflies by 150 miles. if you were awake , wouldn't you ever be slightly curious as to the time remaining on such a long leg. they're liars plain and simple. Man up 188, Man up.
 

JohnDoe

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In their vile attempt to pervert the truth and explain away the biggest blunder of modern airline times,


The biggest blunder of modern airline times? Seriously? That's just a bit of a stretch don't you think considering nobody died.

I am in no way defending these two but that statment is bunk. I would think the deadliest accident to date (tenerief...sp?) would qualify for the biggest blunder to date.

Quit getting your info and opinion from the mainstream media.
 

Mike man

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What's more dangerous? Taxiway or Overflight+
YHGTBFKM...

What is more dangerous flying sick, fatigued, tired because your airline has crappy policy and can punish you for using the F word or having too many sick calls in x amount of time and causing an accident leading to death for many people...or flying past an airport by a few minutes?
 

Amish RakeFight

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Perhaps the medical emergency helped mitigate the brunt. One could argue that it was certainly a contributing factor.
 

eaglesview

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They both can be dangerous, but, IMO, that's not why one has caught the attention of the national media and the other hasn't. One incident appears to involve human error, the other neglect.
This is absolutley correct. DL had a medical emergency, sidestepped, made an error on the piece of pavement in front of them and landed. Then, and here is the key, confessed to their wrong doing and explained in a reasonable manner how it happened. I do not believe the NWA crew did anything to help their own situation. As my father used to say "if you find yourself digging a hole for yourself, put down the shovel."
 

HOMER D POE

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john,
a blunder is not a tragedy. A blunder is an action based the inability to repeat a menial task designed to produce a predictable result. to say that overlfying MSP, and dismissing with a "my dog ate my homework" level excuse, is bunk is to deny the stupidity and insanity of it all.

would it be bunk to say that a surgeon cutting off your penile membrane was bunk when he really wanted to take out your appendix. that would be a blunder in every sense of the word.

overflying your DEST when you're an airline pilot is like me saying to Simon
Cowell, "I'm the next american idol"
 

JohnDoe

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john,
a blunder is not a tragedy. A blunder is an action based the inability to repeat a menial task designed to produce a predictable result. to say that overlfying MSP, and dismissing with a "my dog ate my homework" level excuse, is bunk is to deny the stupidity and insanity of it all.

would it be bunk to say that a surgeon cutting off your penile membrane was bunk when he really wanted to take out your appendix. that would be a blunder in every sense of the word.

overflying your DEST when you're an airline pilot is like me saying to Simon
Cowell, "I'm the next american idol"


Where did I say this incident was not a blunder or that any critique of said incident is bunk?? I'm commenting on your ridiculous assertion that this is the "biggest blunder of modern airline times." That is truely and utterly an overstatement to say the least.
 

mesaba13

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The taxiway could have been very bad if someone else was on it at the time. The question is: Was the Delta crew absolutely certain that the taxiway was clear before they landed on it? It seems like a dumb question but since they landed on a taxi way in the first place it is not that much of a stretch to wonder if they knew for certain that their path was clear (especially because it was dark).

We all know what the proper response is if ever asked this question in an investigation, but none of us will ever really know what the crew saw or did't see in ATL.
 

bigboeings

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Luck was involved in both of them, they could have both been very disastrous. However willfully neglecting cockpit duties is unforgivable.
 

Amish RakeFight

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overflying your DEST when you're an airline pilot is like me saying to Simon
Cowell, "I'm the next american idol"
It's also like a surgeon beginning an operation and walking away from the operating table to sit down in font of his laptop to watch House and fall asleep until the nurse comes a-knocking to remind him theres a patient with an open heart laying on the table.
 

HOMER D POE

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john,
you said it is bunk and you said my assertion was false because it was not the deadliest... you missed my whole point. this incident has nothing to do with death but alot to do with complete absurdity. that is what a blunder is. A blunder is a fumbled punt. a botched snap, and on and on.

yes, it is the biggest blunder of modern airlines times.. name one bigger!
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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john,
you said it is bunk and you said my assertion was false because it was not the deadliest... you missed my whole point. this incident has nothing to do with death but alot to do with complete absurdity. that is what a blunder is. A blunder is a fumbled punt. a botched snap, and on and on.

yes, it is the biggest blunder of modern airlines times.. name one bigger!

Well, stalling an airplane on approach b/c neither pilot was paying attention and then totally botching the recovery...subsequently killing 50 people.... i'd place that one higher.

Playing around like little kids in a CRJ, taking it up to 41,000 feet, stalling it, botching the recovery and trying to hide it from the feds- killing both on board. Yep, that's a bigger blunder.

Not checking your heading prior to takeoff and killing 51 people... yep, that's a bigger blunder.


Maybe you meant to say "currently all over the news but no one is going to remember it 6 months from now?"
 

Dan Roman

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YGTBSM, so the other doesn't involve human error? the other neglect?
i think they both involved both, but one could happen to most anybody, but the other was so grossly unconscionable, so derelict, so wantonly negligent, so pathetic and so lied about. 188 crew is trying to desparately save face even though they're through. they were sleeping and any disgusting attempt to defend them is beyond comprehension. In their vile attempt to pervert the truth and explain away the biggest blunder of modern airline times, they allow themselves to ride out their lives as shams, as liars and hopelessly resigned to dumb anguish. Like OJ, maybe there will be a deathbed confession, a petition for mercy, and an request to be forgiven. just tell the truth. nobody overflies by 150 miles. if you were awake , wouldn't you ever be slightly curious as to the time remaining on such a long leg. they're liars plain and simple. Man up 188, Man up.

I'll bet you watch a lot of FOX News.....
 

800Dog

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The taxiway could have been very bad if someone else was on it at the time. The question is: Was the Delta crew absolutely certain that the taxiway was clear before they landed on it? It seems like a dumb question but since they landed on a taxi way in the first place it is not that much of a stretch to wonder if they knew for certain that their path was clear (especially because it was dark).

We all know what the proper response is if ever asked this question in an investigation, but none of us will ever really know what the crew saw or did't see in ATL.


I had a fed on the js the other day out of ATL. He said the controllers in ATL were aware that the 767 was lined up for taxiway Mike and said nothing. Theywere aware of the medical emergency and chose to say nothing as the taxiway was clear. Also, fed said the fo was heads down loading 27r in the box after the sidestep was approved. Should have just stuck with 27L as planned after a long night of flying and fatigue set in. FO should have been out as well. See runway, land airplane. Not a difficult concept.
 

ATLboeing

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With the issue of fatigue being in the spotlight lately, wouldn't falling asleep be easier to explain and defend, as opposed to being on laptops and not paying attention? There have been numerous instances in the past of pilots falling asleep in the cockpit, and the public is receiving more and more information on this issue through the media. We all know it's possible to still end up dog tired even after a long layover and having actually gotten plenty of sleep the night before. The human body can still become fatigued due to differing sleep cycles from the previous few weeks, so even though you had a 19hr layover, falling asleep in the cockpit is still a possiblity though you showed up to work feeling just fine.
With that said, if I were one of the NWA pilots, I think I would much rather defend me being dead tired and falling asleep than say that we were using our laptops. Many on here are saying these guys should "man up" and tell the truth. Well, I think it took a lot of courage to come forth and say they were on their computers. Much more difficult to admit than falling asleep, in my opinion. I would think the flying public might actually have some sympathy for tired pilots, even after a long layover. They were'nt out drinking and ALPA could easily get on the news and start talking about circadium sleep cylces and explain the effects of interuptions.
So yes, I think these guys told the truth.
Now it's our responsiblity as professionals to take what we've learned from two unfortunate events the past couple of weeks and remind ourselves not to let our guard down. Why do highly educated, highly trained professionals make seemingly "stupid" mistakes? How is it a doctor can amputate the wrong limb, or leave behind a medical instrument? The same way a commercial airline crew overflies their destination, they let down their guard and got complacent.
Now, we can be high-schoolish and come on this board and name call, airline bash, and talk about how these two should be crucified, or we can be professionals and learn something.
My two cents. Rant over.
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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With the issue of fatigue being in the spotlight lately, wouldn't falling asleep be easier to explain and defend, as opposed to being on laptops and not paying attention? There have been numerous instances in the past of pilots falling asleep in the cockpit, and the public is receiving more and more information on this issue through the media. We all know it's possible to still end up dog tired even after a long layover and having actually gotten plenty of sleep the night before. The human body can still become fatigued due to differing sleep cycles from the previous few weeks, so even though you had a 19hr layover, falling asleep in the cockpit is still a possiblity though you showed up to work feeling just fine.
With that said, if I were one of the NWA pilots, I think I would much rather defend me being dead tired and falling asleep than say that we were using our laptops. Many on here are saying these guys should "man up" and tell the truth. Well, I think it took a lot of courage to come forth and say they were on their computers. Much more difficult to admit than falling asleep, in my opinion. I would think the flying public might actually have some sympathy for tired pilots, even after a long layover. They were'nt out drinking and ALPA could easily get on the news and start talking about circadium sleep cylces and explain the effects of interuptions.
So yes, I think these guys told the truth.
Now it's our responsiblity as professionals to take what we've learned from two unfortunate events the past couple of weeks and remind ourselves not to let our guard down. Why do highly educated, highly trained professionals make seemingly "stupid" mistakes? How is it a doctor can amputate the wrong limb, or leave behind a medical instrument? The same way a commercial airline crew overflies their destination, they let down their guard and got complacent.
Now, we can be high-schoolish and come on this board and name call, airline bash, and talk about how these two should be crucified, or we can be professionals and learn something.
My two cents. Rant over.
That's exactly why I think they are telling the truth. It is a much harder road to admit you were breaking company policy and on your laptops than take the easy out and say "we fell asleep." This is why aussiepilot looks so weird jumping all over this... it's like a dog barking up the wrong tree.

These are 2 guys that literally have never had a blemish in careers of over 30,000 hours, and they obviously were very frank in admitting that they screwed the pooch.
 
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